Jesus is the Messiah
Who is Jesus Christ? Who did he claim to be? Jesus asked this question about Himself. Jesus’ earthly ministry lasted about three years. At its beginning He chose twelve disciples who ministered with and learned from Him during those years. During those years He was in constant conflict with the Jewish religious authorities. One day, Jesus asked a revealing question of His disciples. Matthew recorded,
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ (Matthew 16.13-20).
Jesus commended Peter for giving the right answer. What did Peter say? Peter said Jesus was the Christ (ὁ Χριστὸς) or the Messiah. The Messiah was the one sent from God who would establish Israel as the top nation of the world, rule from Jerusalem, and bring in a government of world peace and righteousness. He was the one to whom the Old Testament pointed and whom the prophets foretold. Peter also said Jesus was the “Son of the living God”. What did that mean? It meant Peter recognized Jesus was divine. What was Jesus’ response? He told Peter he was blessed and his answer was right because God Himself revealed it to him. He then went on to declare that he would give to Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven and that these “keys” would give him authority to “bind and loose”. This in itself was a remarkable statement. Who can give that kind of authority? Can a man? No, only God can grant such authority. So Jesus revealed that he was God.
Jesus is YHVH (יהוה)
Jesus not only taught his disciples that he was God, He revealed this truth to those opposed to him by His statements and by His deeds. Consider the remarkable confrontation Jesus had with the Jewish authorities John recorded in John 8.
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free” (John 8.31-32).
This verse sets the context for the argument. Among those who believed Jesus’ words were those of the Jewish religious establishment who did not believe him but were constantly trying to confound, accuse, and condemn him. Upon hearing Jesus they replied (their self-righteous sarcasm is visceral):
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’” (John 8.33)?
John recorded Jesus’ answer:
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father” (John 8.34-38).
We now have a full-blown argument. These Pharisees continued to assert their righteousness and declared Abraham was their Father. Note their statement and how Jesus replied:
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is,you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.”They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God” (John 8.39-47).
The Jews responded by stating that Jesus was a demonically possessed half-breed. Jesus responded to their insult by invoking His obedience to God and His own authority over death itself.
48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death” (John 8.48-51).
The Jews could not comprehend his answer. They could not imagine they were speaking with the Creator, the God of Israel Himself. They replied:
52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be” (John 8.52-53).
Jesus pointed out that they were religious but far from God. He ended by making a remarkable statement about Abraham.
54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing;it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” (John 8.54-56).
Unable to resist this statement the Jews continued:
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Notice Jesus’ response
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
And their reaction:
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
What did Jesus say to make them angry enough to stone him? Jesus’ words, “truly, truly” were an idiom that meant, “listen up, what I’m telling you, you can take to the bank.” That got their attention. Then he said the words,
“Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.”
This is translated, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.” Abraham γενέσθαι–he was born, he came into being. But Jesus did not “become,” γενέσθαι. He was ἐγὼ εἰμί, “I am”. He did not become, He is. He claimed eternal self-existence. Do not think the Jews did not understand what he was saying. They got it. The knew their Bible and their minds immediately flashed to God’s words to Moses in Exodus 3.13-14.
13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
What Jesus was telling these Jews was that he was the God of the Bible. He was the eternal, ever-existing one, the I AM. He was God Almighty.
Jesus Forgave Sin
Jesus not only made claims of his divinity, he proved his words with deeds. Jesus had a widespread healing ministry. He healed thousands. Luke recorded a dramatic healing of a paralyzed man in Luke 5.17-26:
17 One day He was teaching; and there were some Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was present for Him to perform healing. 18 And some men were carrying on a bed a man who was paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and to set him down in front of Him. 19 But not finding any way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down through the tiles with his stretcher, into the middle of the crowd, in front of Jesus. 20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” 22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24 But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.” 25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God. 26 They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God; and they were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen remarkable things today.”
Here we find a situation where Jesus was teaching and some Pharisees and lawyers were present. Some Jews approached carrying a paralyzed man and tried to get their friend to Jesus for they had heard about his healings. But the crowd was so dense they could not get him to Jesus. Someone came up with the bright idea to attack from above. They climbed onto the roof, tore off the tiles, and began to lower the lame man down into the crowd. What a scene! Jesus, observing this, was impressed. What did he say to them? Luke recorded:
20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.
What was the reaction of the religious authorities?
21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?”
They were right. Only God can forgive sins. What was Jesus’ response? Luke recorded:
22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24 But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”
Jesus presented the religious leaders with a question. He asked them what was easier, to say “your sins are forgiven” or “get up and walk”. What was the answer to the question? It is easier to say “your sins are forgiven”. That requires no proof. So what did Jesus do? He gave them proof. To demonstrate he had power to forgive sins he healed the man. Now it is important not to miss the significance of Jesus’ statement. If you do something wrong to me I can forgive you and the matter is settled. But this man had nothing against Jesus and yet Jesus declared that his sins were forgiven. If a regular person went around forgiving people whom he has never seen or had any dealings we would call the person mad. But Jesus was not mad. He considered that the fact of the matter was that he was the person chiefly offended by sin. And to prove it he healed the man.
Another thing not to overlook is that Luke’s statement that Jesus “saw their faith.” Who can “see faith” but God? Luke recorded the reaction of the man and the crowd:
25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God. 26 They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God; and they were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen remarkable things today.”
Jesus Healed the Blind
One of the greatest miracles Jesus performed was the healing of a blind man. John wrote that this man was blind from birth (John 9.1). Jesus healed the man and the man was taken to the Pharisees to show them that he had been healed (John 9.13). The Pharisees kept asking how he was healed. He kept repeating what had happened but they refused to believe. They then asked the man’s parents but they were afraid to answer (John 9.19-23) and told the Pharisees to ask their son. They did and then got into an argument with him. No one is more testy than self-righteous religious people. The former blind man was uneducated but gave the Pharisees a theological lesson:
30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
Unable to respond, the Jews excommunicated him (John 9.34). When Jesus heard about this he made a special effort to find and speak with him. John recorded:
35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
The term “Son of Man” was the title Jesus took to identify himself with man as the God-man and Messiah. God had used this nomenclature many times for Ezekiel. Jesus asked the man if he believed in the Son of Man. When the man asked him who he was, Jesus declared that he was the “Son of Man”, that is, the Messiah. The man believed and worshiped him. Only God is worthy of worship. Jesus accepted this worship for he is God.
Jesus is the Only Way
Shortly before his crucifixion Jesus spoke words to comfort his disciples. He declared that he was the only way to God. Notice he did not say a way, he said the way. John recorded in John 14.1-6:
1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus is Equal to the Father
Continuing his discourse, Jesus said that if anyone knew him he also knew the Father. Philip, not understanding, asked to see the Father. Jesus declared that who had seen him had seen the Father. John recorded:
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” 8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father (John 14.7-12).
Jesus is the Creator
Moses wrote in Genesis 2.4 regarding the creation of the world:
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
The Lord God (יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים) made the heavens and the earth. We know from a number of Scriptures and from Jesus’ own words that he is YHVH, יהוה. Jesus Christ is the one who created the universe–the heavens and the earth (John1.3; Colossians 1.15-16; Hebrews 1.2; Ephesians 3.9; 1 Corinthians 8.6).
Jesus Rose from the Dead
There is only one who has the power to rise from the dead. No man has this power. Only God can raise the dead. The Scriptures teach that Jesus rose from the dead and for Christians this is the proof that Jesus paid for our sins and satisfied the righteousness of a holy God. This is the gospel (1 Corinthians. 15.1-5). The reaction of the disciples to Jesus’ resurrection is the clearest proof of the historicity of Jesus’ resurrection. No other rational explanation can explain their change of behavior. The resurrection turned them from terrified cowards to become as bold as lions. Why? They had seen the resurrected Lord (Matthew 28.6-7; Mark 16.6-14; Luke 24.6, 34; 2 Timothy 2.8; John 2.22; 21.14; Acts 2.24, 32; 3.15, 26; 4.10; 5.30; 10.40; 13.30, 33-34, 37; Romans 4.24-25; 6.4, 9; 7.4; 8.11, 34; 10.9; 1 Corinthians 6.14; 15.4, 12-20; 2 Corinthians 4.14; Galatians 1.1; Ephesians 1.20; Colossians 2.6, 12; 3.1; 1 Thessalonians 1.10; 1 Peter 1.21).
Conclusion
C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity wrote the following:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic–on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg–or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”1
Some have criticized Lewis that his logic is flawed. I would submit that those who have made this argument have failed to examine carefully Jesus’ statements. They need to read their Bibles. When one reads the Scriptures, the accounts about Jesus such as the ones above, one rational conclusion exists: Jesus is God. Lewis’ logic was flawless.
1 See P. H. Brazier. ‘God . . . Or a Bad, or Mad, Man’: C. S. Lewis’s Argument for Christ–A Systematic Theological, Historical and Philsophical Analysis of Aut Deus Aut Malus Homo. The Heythrop Journal. Vol. LV (2014), pp. 1-30 for an analysis of Lewis’ argument and its history.
©2010 Don Samdahl. Anyone is free to reproduce this material and distribute it, but it may not be sold.
Updated 19:10:122016-05-25
Don,
Great article.
I was wondering, is Jesus considered King now? Is He king over the church and not Israel? later becoming king for them during the earthly reign? I had this question on my mind and googled it and it really go me confused reading different articles stating that premillennialism is false. That Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world and that When Jesus’ disciples tried to make Him an earthly king, He withdrew from their midst (Jn. 6:15), refusing to be an earthly king. This really threw me off. Help me understand. TY
Linda,
There’s a great deal of confusion and false teaching about this. The Scriptures declare that one day Jesus will sit on His throne but at present He is seated at the right hand of the Father’s throne (Psalm 110.1). Jesus is never stated to be the King of the Church. His designation for us is Lord and Head. What Jesus meant when He said His kingdom was not of this world was that the source of His kingdom was not of this world, not that it would not be on this earth. Almost everyone who has gone to church has said the Lord’s Prayer, which states, “thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” The Scriptures declare Jesus will reign on the earth many times (Zechariah 14.9 cf. Psalm 2.8). Those who teach otherwise, err, not knowing the Scriptures.
Hi! i have encountered a JW who is pretty firm on sticking to Jesus is not God, even with the many many many scriptures that i clearly shows that He is! In one area in particular, where stephen “worshiped” Jesus or anywhere it says someone “worshiped” Jesus. He keeps referring that the KJV changed the original greek word, which is suppost to be “obeisance” which is to bow down and not worship. how would i explain it to him in a clearer understanding?
Thanks,
Christina
Christina,
The word for worship is προσκυνέω. See John 4.20.21,23. This is the same word used for those who worshipped Jesus. The wise men came to worship Him. They knew He was God. If Jesus had accepted worship of Himself and not been God He would have been evil. Does he think Jesus was evil? Or insane?
This is interesting about JWs rejecting the KJV because up until the 1950’s, the KJV was their official bible.
Thanks for your article here Don. When Peter gave his answer that Jesus was “…the Christ, the Son of the living God”, was this a redundant answer or a two pronged reply? In other words it is my understanding that “the Christ” is a similar answer as if Peter said instead “the Messiah”, but did the Old Testament Jewish scholars equate Messiah (or the Christ) and “the Son of God”?
Tom,
The word “Christ” is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew/Aramaic “Messiah.” Both mean “anointed one.” As to the “Son of God,” it is doubtful the rabbis knew the Messiah would be God. I think the closest they got to this understanding was that the Messiah would be “Emmanuel,” “God is with us” (Isaiah 7.14). Interestingly, the term “son of God” in the OT is spoken not by a Jew but by a Gentile–Nebuchadnezzar, who declared when he threw Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego into the furnace, “Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God” (Daniel 3.25). What is important to understand is that Peter’s statement was a declaration of saving faith. Believing who Jesus was, His identity, constituted saving faith (cf. John 11.26) in Jesus’ earthly ministry–and afterwards until we get to Paul. This was the gospel of the kingdom. With Paul we have a new gospel–the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20.24). Today, we are not saved by believing who He is, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, but by believing what He has done–His death on the cross for our sins and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). Peter had no understanding of this until Paul revealed it.
It is interesting to me that you only mention Isaiah 7:4 but I believe the Jews would have known that the Messiah would be God in the flesh by reading Isaiah 9:6 also: where He is referred to as Mighty God and Everlasting Father. Also, Paul in Romans 10:9-13 affirms that we must (also) believe and confess that He is Lord, along with believing that God has raised Him from the dead. Please comment.
Frank,
The article provides proofs Jesus was God but shows the rabbis did not understand this. This has not changed. For Paul, believe and confess are enmeshed, inseparable. One who believes will confess. See 2 Corinthians 4.13, a quote of Psalm 116.10. Paul made this argument in Romans 10.9-11. Note verse 11 concludes with only “believe.” Paul’s emphasis is always believe. Faith plus nothing.
In Matthew 10 Jesus commands (not “suggests”,”hopes”, etc) his disciples not go to gentiles but the lost sheep of the House of Israel. When was this command lifted?
Joe,
It could only be lifted when Israel repented. This will be their role in the Millennium. But in grace, God saved Paul to be the apostle of the Gentiles. The 12 never had a ministry to Gentiles.
Hi brother, you mentioned before to me that Paul was the exception when it came to Paul, as a person, switching from the gospel of the kingdom salvationto the mystery gospel salvation, but what about Luke who was with him to the end, could Luke be another exception?
George,
Maybe. Probably.
Do you believe Christians should celebrate his birth, Christmas?
Theresa,
Absolutely! He became man to secure our salvation.
Hi Don, Your comment about Christmas and celebrating the Lords birth on this day shocked me. Jesus was not born on the 25th December as we all know so why do we follow mans traditions, especially a Catholic tradition. Forgive me if I come over a little harsh but God dwelt with me on this very issue a few years back. Take care.
Vanessa,
Do you think we should celebrate the Lord’s birth? If so, on what day? Jesus was not born on Dec. 25 and this day was chosen to replace a pagan holiday. The closest application I can think of is meat offered to idols. Paul told the Corinthians that it was ok to eat such meat but if it bothered one, he should not (1 Corinthians 8). This is an area of Christian liberty.
Hi Don, In my heart I celebrate the Lords Birth. Its impossible to not. I do it often and never set a day to do it. Thank you.
Hi Don, I wanted to comment on Is John 3:16 Christian? but it doesnt have a comment section.
Becky,
Fixed! Thank you.
Hi, Don. I just read this article and found it kind of interesting. The reason I say “kind of” is because it seems to assume that one must believe that Jesus is God to be in the Christian camp. You know all the alternatives, I’m sure, so there’s no reason to rehash them here. In my reading of the gospels Jesus usually seems to be distancing himself from God (I’m sure you know all those passages, too), thus we have to rely on the “I AM” verse to somehow get across something that Jesus was never clear about. As orthodoxy has developed over the centuries, that Jesus is God is the prevailing view. I don’t see that ever changing.
On the flip side of the coin, some believe that Jesus was God’s first (and only?) creation. That would certainly account for the “I AM” passage, but such a belief is certainly not “orthodox.” My question is: is one saved by grace through Christ even if one believes that Jesus was God’s first creation? It kind of goes back to the whole issue of “What must one believe in order to be saved?”
I don’t want this to turn into a discussion, really; I’m just curious how you would answer that question.
Thank you.
Roger,
The Scriptures provide significant evidence Jesus is God: He forgives sin, accepts worship, is the source of all life, is the Creator of the universe, etc. The path to demonstrate Jesus is not God is extremely stony and difficult.
That being the case, who or what was created in Proverbs 8:22-30? I’ve never heard a logical interpretation of that passage. Whoever or whatever it refers to must have been lacking to God. Have you had a chance to interpret this passage? Thank you.
Roger,
Wisdom is the subject of Psalm 8.
Are we reading the same passage? I referred to Proverbs 8 but you mention Psalm 8.
I’ve yet to hear an interpretation of this passage that makes sense. I was hoping you had.
My question presses, but if you think I’m just being argumentative, feel free not to respond.
Roger,
Sorry, I miswrote. The subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdom.
Yes, I get that. But why did God create it? He certainly wasn’t lacking wisdom, was He?
Most evangelical commentators say Wisdom is Jesus, and then don’t comment on the creation part of it. How are we to understand this passage?
Roger,
It’s a literary device. Wisdom is being personified.
You seem hesitant to answer my question. How would you explain this passage to someone who really wants to know what’s going on? Who or what did God create? What does “Wisdom is being personified” mean? There may be others in this forum who would like to know as well. It’s confusing to me, especially in light of the commentators. How would you explain the passage to a 9-year old?
Roger,
I do not understand what kind of answer you want. It’s poetry. Solomon is personifing wisdom to describe its value. I think a 9 year old can understand this. As for “create” I assume you mean in v.22. The KJV renders this “possess” as does NASB. The Hebrew is קָנָה. See Gesenius’ note on this verb.
Good Morning Don, The question I wish to ask is not an easy one and it may even come over as silly. Can one say that Jesus of Nazareth and the Risen Lord are different. I tread so carefully in posting this as I am so aware of false doctrine. I have read the above article but putting it in one simple sentence does not come easy. I read another article saying Jesus was a Rabbi and came for the Jews only and we as gentiles have no claim over him as our Messiah. But the risen Lord we can call him ours. What are the differences between Jesus of Nazareth and the Risen Lord. Thank you.
Vanessa,
Jesus in His earthly ministry came to present Himself as King and offer the kingdom to the Jews (Romans 15.8). For the Church, Jesus presented Himself as the risen Lord. Responding to Him in the former required believing He was the Messiah, the Son of God, water baptism, keeping the Law. Responding Him today requires believing Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4).
It is interesting to me that when the Magi asked where they should go to see the new born King , Herod asked the religious leadership where Christ was to be born….Of course they didn’t know so they went and looked it up. (Book of Micah) Surly 30-33 years later some of these religious leaders would have remembered this (along with the killing of all the young male children), realized prophecy was being fulfilled and associated all that was transpiring (miracles) and associated the fulfilling of OT prophecy that Jesus was the Christ (their Messiah) .
But like Paul says “if they had known they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord”.(1 Cor. 2:8)
Seems unfair to hid things that might otherwise aid in someone’s salvation.
Joe,
The Jews should have and could have recognized their Messiah. Consider today. Look at all the evidence. But precious few Jews come to Christ. God provides sufficient, but not exhaustive evidence for salvation.
I know what you’re saying Joe.
When it seems unfair, I am reminded of what Paul says: “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! Who hath known the mind of the Lord, or who hath been His counsellor?” (Romans 11:33-34)
One day we will see it all clearly. I am fully expecting to fall to my knees in amazement at that point.
GraceReceiver and Joe,
The only thing I can say to this is that it appears the lost will not learn. They remain in everlasting rebellion. Jesus made this point in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man did not regret his actions, only his torment. He told the rich man that Moses was sufficient evidence for them and greater evidence would have no effect. C. S. Lewis took up this subject in The Great Divorce.
correct me if im wrong, so there is Not 3 different persons in the trinity (not a biblical term), as some believe. It’s all three are ONE God, not three gods!! right!? Equal in every way, not one subordinate to another? God is the Father, came down in the Flesh, and is the Holy Spirit as well! Omnipresent?
thanks,
Christina
Christina,
Yes. God is one in nature or essence and three in person: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
some people see that as 3 gods. how would you explain that to them?
Christina,
Historically, the explanation has been God is one in essence and three in person. This is made clear from Genesis 1. The word Elohim is plural and is translated God or gods according to context. Genesis 1.26 reads, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Hi Don,
Once again thanks for your many articles. So many areas of difficulty now make so much sense. God bless you and keep you active in this powerful ministry.
Ron,
Thank you for your kind words.
Don, Thank you for your ministry. I “accidentally” found you while looking for references on the Bride of Christ. One area I can’t seem to wrap my mind around is that the ministry of Jesus was all about WHO He was. The desired response of Israel was to recognize Him as the Messiah and believe in Him. Then why in virtually every healing, did He then tell the healed not to say anything about what had happened (I think I understand since He was swamped with people wanting to be healed everywhere He went). But in the last verse above and there are many others why did He tell the disciples not to disclose that He was the Messiah?
Pete,
It’s a good question and difficult to answer. Jesus performed thousands of miracles. They were designed to prove He was the Messiah. Yet Jesus repeatedly commanded that His miracles or identity not be revealed. Part of it was that nothing could interfere with His going to the cross. He couldn’t be made king prematurely. See Mark 9.9. The resurrection was the great miracle. It far surpassed healing the blind, dumb, deaf or even raising others from the dead. It was the definitive miracle which revealed to Israel He was the Christ. In addition, God actively hid some things. One remarkable passage is Luke 18.31-34. Despite this, all who wished salvation received it. God’s genius is to allow His sovereignty and human will to work in concert. After His resurrection, Israel had no excuse.
Jesus is only the Son of God he is not God himself and in John 8:58 he’s not claiming to be God but claiming to be the Messiah and the Son of God that Abraham saw by faith according to Hebrews 11 stop reading your Pagan theology into the text trinitarian deity of Christ believing so-called Christians are not really Christians because you have a different Jesus and a different God Paul said in Galatians 3:20 in the Amplified Bible that God is only one person if he’s only one person and not three then the Trinity is false and Paul proved it right there in that verse your ministry is a very dangerous Ministry because you preach the right gospel but the wrong God and the wrong Jesus there for your a false Christian and are not saved until you reject the Trinity and the deity of Christ
Anonymous,
So many Scriptures reveal Jesus is God, it’s hard to know where to begin. To state the contrary only reveals ignorance of the Scriptures. Just for a beginning, John 1.1-14, 10.30, 14.9; Daniel 7.9-10, 22; Revelation 1.8, 11-20; Hebrews 1.8; Titus 2.13.
Also in Revelation God the Father Hands over the scroll of 7 seals. Did God hand it over to himself? Two personalities there, but none from the creation was found to be worthy of that scroll, it was the Lamb that was worthy to open the seals. AMEN!
Anonymous,
No true believer would reject the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
That’s exactly what is said here.
Rom. 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
By saying what you’ve said your even denying the virgin birth… your saying you don’t believe the Bible.
Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
And another is…
1 Timothy 3:16
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
Think on this and may God open your eyes .
Galatians 3:20 now a go between intermediary has to do with an implies more than one party there can be no mediator with just one person yet God is only one person and he is the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham but the law was a contract between two God and Israel its validity was dependent on both. 1st Timothy 3:16 there is no doubt that Godlioness is a great mystery Jesus appeared in a body the Holy Spirit proved that he was the Son of God he was seen by angels He was preached among the Nations people in the world believed in him he was taken up to heaven in Glory. there is no Trinity or deity of Christ in these verses the KJV has corrupted those verses and I don’t deny Matthew 1:18 if it wasn’t for the Virgin birth Jesus wouldn’t be able to be created perfectly without a sinful nature to be empowered by God’s invisible active forced to live a sinless life died on the cross and rise again from the dead to save us from our sins
Anonymous,
Paul wrote that Christ Jesus was the mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2.5).
Sorry.. pls Is it true that in the old testament of king James version.
. Lord – Jesus Christ and Lord- The father?
Daniel,
Usually, the word LORD refers to God the Son. Exception is Psalm 110.1.
Yea, thanks… is it just verse 1 or the whole chapter?
Daniel,
LORD in the Psalm refers to God the Father. Lord is the Son. The whole matter of the “persons” of the Godhead is somewhat transferable. Isaiah 9.6 says the Son is the everlasting Father. Read Daniel 7 where the description of the Ancient of Days is like John’s description of Christ (Revelation 1) but then the Son comes before the Ancient of Days. Jesus said, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” I think of the Godhead in terms of roles. If you’ve read The Count of Monte Cristo, you know Edmund Dantes is the Count, Abbe Busoni, Lord Wilmore, etc.
Mr Don, please why did Jesus many times distance himself from the father when they are supposed to be equal? Again, Proverbs 8 so strongly depicts Christ. Paul wrote that Christ is the wisdom and power of God. Why is it not Christ?
What does first born of every creature mean?
The relationship BTW father and son seems to mean that the son came from the father that the father existed before the son. But why should God and Christ be an exception?
Thing is that a JW just talked to me about this and how Christ is in unity with God and of course deity but not equal with him, it appears that way throughout the gospels like in John 17 talks about the unity in John 10:39.. Also see John 14:28
Thanks Very much… I am at this point reading led feldick’s “through the bible” as I know you learnt from him
Phantom,
The word πρωτότοκος applied to Christ is a title of preeminence. Christ is fully God and fully human. He holds first place over all humanity. God is One but manifests Himself in three roles, relationships, or personalities: Father, Son, and Spirit. The Father is seen as God over-all. The Son is the spokesman of the Father and the only visible member of the Godhead, the Spirit is the revealer and empowerment of God. Only God is worshipped and Jesus accepted worship (Hebrews 1.6). The problem with the JW position is they ignore many Scriptures that refute their view. Just a few are John 10.30, 14.9; Daniel 7, Revelation 1.
Thanks very much…1)Pls do you know exactly why Jesus chose to refer to himself as son of man?
2)When I mentioned John 10:30, he used John 17:22 to refute it… saying they just have the same purpose like believers should or something like that
3)The Greek word used for first born in Col 1:15 was the same word used in Luke 2:7.. like as if he was the first to come into existence…
I know and I’m very sure that Christ is self existent but how will I explain to someone who has the above views(2 & 3)?….
Phantom,
Jesus referred to Himself as “son of man” to identify Himself with us. One must examine all the Scriptures. There are scores of Scriptures that prove Jesus is God. One can always select a few and argue against them but when taken in its entirety, this is not possible. I doubt this person brought up Revelation 1, where Christ is the Alpha and Omega or Titus 2.13. The problem with these folks is they don’t want to see. Their religion is greater than the Scriptures.
Phantom,
I did a study on these verses …Hebrews 1:2,3 and was very awed.
Verses 2&3, if you can access an interlinear such as Blue Letter Bible , do a word study on the words describing Christ. It is awesome and a great study.
OK.. Thanks.. I will
I don’t really understand this statement you made, pls just clarify “One can always select a few and argue against them but when taken in its entirety, this is not possible”
Please look at d number 2 n 3 points again. And answer them accordingly, make them clear please because I know scripture cannot contradict itself.. I need to understand them the right way… Thanks..
Phantom,
If you have scores of Scriptures that reveal Christ is God and a couple that give problems, the problem is misunderstanding the couple that give problems. Luke 2.7 uses πρωτότοκος in terms of Jesus’ birth as Joseph and Mary’s first child but this is not how Paul used the word or what he meant. Words have meaning according to context. Paul’s usage has nothing to do with Jesus’ physical birth.
OK Mr Samadhl.. I will do a personal study on it to know what Paul meant exactly.
Thanks again for your help
Its very clear now.. Thanks again
Im sure your articles have really blessed a lot of people
I wonder if you going to do a new article probably on the Lord’s supper or on the books of 1, 2 n 3 John
Grace and peace
Phantom,
Good! Thank you.
Hi Don and all:)
Romans 8:17 KJV — And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12 KJV — If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Is Lord Jesus suffering still?… this is sad to consider, as he suffered so much for us in his death and carrying our sins… just something I was thinking of.
Bobbi,
1 Peter 3.18 and Hebrews 9.26 reveal Christ’s sufferings are completed. He said on the cross, “Finished.”
Hello Bobbi and Don,
Hope you are well and had a good Thanksgiving. I am busy studying The Gift of suffering and its not an easy study. Never knew suffering was a gift. It hardly feels like that in my life but I desire to so the right thing so I must study.
2 Timothy 2:12 KJV — If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
The sentence begins with an IF which tells me that not all suffer. The denying is not the same as what Peter did but refers to giving up on our faith and walk. Don please set me right. Thank you.
Last question please. Why do some believers suffer more than others.
Vanessa,
2 Timothy 2.12 is a first class conditional clause which means it is assumed to be true. The presumption is that every believer will suffer. We live in the Devil’s world and believers compose only a tiny minority. The whole world is arrayed against us. The question of why some suffer more than others is unanswerable. Some suffering is caused by poor choices, abuse of one’s body etc. But other suffering cannot be explained this side of heaven. Paul prayed three times to the Lord that his thorn in the flesh be removed. It wasn’t. The Lord told him His grace was sufficient. Ultimately, God deals with us as individuals and has but one objective: to conform us into the image of His Son.
Hello dear Vanessa and Don,
is this verse 2 Tim. 2:12, similar to Romans 8:9 KJV — But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his…? If one is saved we have the Spirit of Christ… Paul and his “if we” and “if so be’s”… lol. Sometimes it’s hard.
Bobbi,
Romans 8.9 is basically the same. It has the conditional particle εἴπερ and should be translated, “since.”
Thank you Don. Needed time to wrap my mind around your reply. Its a presuming answer. Ok.
Dear Sir,
The twelve went to the circumcision, but Paul went to the uncircumcision. How do you reconcile Philippians 3:3? We are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit? Thank you.
Josh,
Paul is using “circumcision” here in a different sense—a spiritual sense. He regarded the circumcised Jews, the false teachers who opposed him as “concision,” (Philippians 3.2, multilation), not true circumcision, a circumcision of the heart (see Romans 2.29, cf. Deuteronomy 10.16, 30.6; Jeremiah 4.4).
Dear Sir
Which is a day Jesus Christ died and buried in the tomb and which day he raised from dead.They are lot of confusion about this please help me
Percy,
See the following study: https://doctrine.org/companion-bible-appendix-156.
It saddens me that the majority of church-going Christians and yourself believe Jesus is God when that’s not what Jesus says in scripture without reading into the scripture like Calvinist do. No, I’m not JW or oneness, just the doctrine of Christ that’s laid out in the Bible (2 John 9). They believe men and not the Bible. (Deu 6:4) cannot be any clearer and Jesus’ answer to the scribe in (Mark 12:28-34) is as clear as it gets. Jesus says that MOST will be deceived and that FEW will find the narrow gate. The Trinity was added later 3-4 centuries after Christ. Many church-going Christians are trained (brainwashed) just like the JW’s when it comes to the Trinity. They believe traditions of men and not the Bible, hence, (Deu 6:4) and (Mark 12:29). I do enjoy your site, however, I just have to filter it some due to this Biblical truth of our Father God and His Son Christ Jesus. I pray you look into this Don. God bless you.
JD,
It saddens me that you can read the Scriptures that show Jesus is God and refuse to believe them. Jesus said, “I am my Father are one” (John 10.30) and “He that has see Me has seen the Father” (John 14.9). Jesus forgave sin. He accepted worship. Only God can forgive sin. And only God accepts worship except someone who is mad or evil. The Trinity may be found in Isaiah 48.16 in the OT and in the NT in 2 Corinthians 13.14. The ideas the Trinity was added 3-4 centuries later is nonsense. I hope you will believe the Scripture and not the traditions of men.
Actually JD is correct. The Trinity is a late teaching. Even the Catholics, whence we receive the teaching, state:
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”— New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299
If the Trinity were Jesus’ teaching, and if by ‘one’ He meant a numerical ‘one’, should John 10:30 not read “I am my Father are two thirds”?
John,
This statement means confirmation of the Trinity by a council of men. The early Church was rife with heresy and it took centuries to recognize formally the Trinity. But knowledge of God as Father, Son, and Spirit goes back to the OT. The canon was not recognized by the Church until centuries after the Scriptures were completed. Paul wrote that he would complete the Scriptures, i.e., 2 Timothy (Colossians 1.25). So the Scriptures were completed by about 67 A.D. This shows how slow man is to recognize and believe what God has revealed. Jesus’ statement, “I am my Father are one” is a statement about nature, not number. Father, Son, and Spirit are the different roles of the one God. Read Daniel 7. The Ancient of Days and the Son of man are the same God in different roles, much like, if you’ve ever read Monte Cristo, Edmund Dantes is Monte Cristo, Lord Wilbury, Abbe Busoni, etc.
There’s an argument that the rapture is a 19th century invention.
If your using Catholic dogma as a source you’ve got to remember things like the assumption of Mary was only accepted as true as late as the 1950’s and other things like the immaculate conception as late 100 years before that (1850’s). Perpetual virginity as late as 5th or 6th century. For a long time they were selling indulgences. Being nice to the Jews has not been their strong point for a long time either.
Joe,
The argument the Rapture is a 19th century invention is nonsense. The reality is that eschatology received almost no attention until the 19th century. The Rapture has been in the Scripture for as long as anything else. The problem is that theologians have failed to understand Paul and the secrets he revealed. It took nearly 1500 years for the doctrine of salvation, faith alone in the work of Christ, to be rediscovered.
Agreed on the Rapture but I’ve listened to Preterests argue otherwise. My opening sentence was unclear
Joe,
The Preterist argument that all prophecy was fulfilled at 70 A.D. and Christ has returned is madness. These people live in an alternate reality because they do not understand the meaning of “this generation” and what “near” means in the context of the prophetic Scripture. They have taken Amillennialism to an extreme in abandoning the literal interpretation of the Scriptures.
Ancient non-Biblical/non-Christian sources can also be cited as to early Christians believing Christ to be God. For example, the Roman Governor, Pliny the Younger, wrote around 112 A.D. : “They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternative verses to Christ, as to a god.” The Roman historian, Cornelius Tacitus, writing around 117 A.D., also referred to Christ’s crucifixion under Pilate, and the ‘superstition’ (i.e. resurrection) that followed.
Athanasius’ syllogism: 1) Only God Can save 2) Jesus Christ saves 3) Therefore, Jesus Christ is God
Don, I hear a lot of Christians say: “The King is coming.” Is that the way we should refer to Jesus?
Craig,
Well, Jesus is King of kings, but for us, the Church, He is the Head of the body and Lord. Our hope is His coming for us at the Rapture. That is our blessed hope. Jesus’ return as King, is at the end of the Tribulation.
“Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (Matthew 4:7)
“Since Christ is the living Word of the New Testament, and since His coming as the Messiah is the culminating theme of the Old Testament, it should not surprise us that prophecies regarding Him out number all others. Many of these prophecies would have been impossible for Jesus to deliberately conspire to fulfill – such as His descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (Genesis 12:3; 17:19; Matthew 1:1-2; Acts 3:25); His birth in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1,6); His crucifixion with criminals. (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38); the piercing of His hands and feet on the cross. (Psalm 22:16; John 20:25); the soldiers gambling for His clothes. (Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35); the piercing of His side. (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34); the fact that His bones were not broken at His death. (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-37); His burial among the rich. (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60); and His resurrection. (Psalm 16:10; Matthew 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:6; John 20:9)” (‘The Da Vinci Code: Fact or Fiction? : A Critique of the Novel by Dan Brown,’ pgs.49-50, 2004, by Hank Hanegraaff and Paul L. Maier)
Thank you very much once again for your articles.. How do you reconcile Isaiah 58: 13-14 and Mark 2: 23-26?
They sound contradictary. What exactly did Jesus mean?
Was He just only trying to silence the Pharisees?
Tomi,
What happened in the grain fields was another example of Jesus “working” on the Sabbath. He asked the Jews if it was a violation of the Sabbath to heal, to do good on the Sabbath. He asked them which one of them didn’t pull his ox from a ditch on the Sabbath. He declared the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was “rest,” a time free from work, a relief to Jews in a hard, fallen world. As for 1 Thessalonians 5.23, I have translated it thus: Now may the God of the peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your whole spirit, and soul, and body10 be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Don,
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1. The mysteries were given to Paul?
2. Is this saying Jesus Christ in the flesh preached to Gentiles?
3. Is this in chronological order?
Joe,
This covers Jesus’ earthly ministry and perhaps beyond. How God was going to solve the problem of sin and death was unknown, a secret. For example, the clearest passage, Isaiah 53, was not understood and it applied only to Jews. As far as “preached unto Gentiles,” Paul probably had the Canaanite woman and Roman centurion in mind and perhaps, later, his own ministry.
Don,
My daughter asked me about the difference found in the gospels regarding the crucifixion. I wasn’t prepared for the question. I’ve searched for a good answer, but I have found little. Can you lead me to a site that addresses the seemingly different accounts of what happened? Below are some of the differences:
Who Carried Jesus’ Cross?
In the Passion narratives, did Jesus carry his cross or not?
Mark 15:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26 – Jesus gets help from Simon of Cyrene
John 19:17 – Jesus carries his cross the whole way
Inscription on Jesus’ Cross
When crucified, Jesus’ cross had an inscription — but what did it say?
Mark 15:26 – The inscription: “The King of the Jews.”
Matthew 27:37 – The inscription: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
Luke 23:38 – The inscription: “This is the King of the Jews.”
John 19:19 – The inscription: “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.”
Jesus and the Thieves
Some gospels say Jesus was crucified with two thieves, though the Romans never crucified thieves.
Mark – The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation
Matthew 27:44 – The two thieves taunt Jesus
Luke 23:39-42 – One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other.
John – The two men aren’t described as thieves
Does Jesus Drink Wine or Vinegar?:
Jesus is given something to drink while he is on the cross, but what?
Mark 15:23 – Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh, but he doesn’t drink
Matthew 27:48, Luke 23:36 – Jesus is given vinegar, but he doesn’t drink
John 19:29-30 – Jesus is given vinegar, and he drinks
Jesus and the Centurion
Romans supposedly witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion, but what did they think?
Mark 15:39 – A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was the son of God!”
Matthew 27:54 – A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this was the son of God.”
Luke 23:47 – A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was innocent.”
John – No centurions say anything
Women Watch the Crucifixion:
The gospels describe several women as having followed Jesus around, but what did they do when Jesus was crucified?
Mark 15:40, Matthew 27:55, Luke 23:49 – Several women watch Jesus from afar
John 19:25-26 – Several women are close enough that Jesus could talk to his mother, contrary to Roman practices
When Was Jesus Crucified?
The crucifixion of Jesus is the central event of the Passion narrative, but the narratives don’t agree on when the crucifixion occurred.
Mark 15:25 – Jesus was crucified on the “third hour.”
John 19:14-15 – Jesus was crucified on the “sixth hour.”
Matthew, Luke – It’s not stated when the crucifixion starts, but the “sixth hour” occurs during the crucifixion
Jesus’ Last Words
Jesus’ last words before dying are important, but no one seems to have written them down.
Mark 15:34-37, Matthew 27:46-50 – Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (but they use different Greek words for “God” — Matthew uses “Eli, is” and Mark uses “Eloi”)
Luke 23:46 – Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 – Jesus says: “It is finished.”
Earthquake After the Resurrection:
Was there an earthquake when Jesus died?
Matthew 27:51-53 – At the moment Jesus dies, a massive earthquake strikes and opens tombs where dead people rise again
Mark, Luke, John – No earthquake is mentioned. No earthquake and no massive influx of formerly dead people are mentioned in any historical records, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be.
Joe,
These questions have been answered but can’t point to the sources. One can probably google them. There is a book, Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, that may address them.
Hi,
We have someone named Nicky Cruz, which you propably have heard of. He has shared his testimony on how God met him in the midst of total darkness in life, him being a gang member, prisoner and generally ice cold. A really strong testimony on how Jesus came into his life and changed it radically. In his testimonies it appears that he has different theology than you. Do you think he is representing and sharing a false doctrine?
Peter,
I heard about Nicky Cruz many years ago and that the Lord saved him from gang life. I know nothing about him beyond that or what his theology is. Did you have something specific in mind?
Don,
Concisely, in a few words, what was it that Jesus Christ said or did that got the Jewish leadership so angry that they felt it required the death penalty? The reason I’m asking is that I’ve had a spike in JW’s at my door recently and after I finish witnessing to them I’d like to ask them one penetrating question that may get them thinking. I’m assuming the answer is Jesus claimed to be God. (“Before Abraham I AM”) Obviously, the Jw’s can’t use that as their answer, Thanks
Joe,
See John 19.7.
Thanks Don but claiming to be a Son of God to a JW is simply claiming to be an angel. Gen 6 and other places use the phrase ‘son(s) of God’ for angels and that’s exactly what JW’s believe Jesus is, a mighty angel…Michael, the archangel. But, on the other hand, I think it would be difficult for a JW to argue putting Christ to death for claiming to be an angel. I wonder if anywhere in first century Jewish law claiming to be an angel in the flesh demanded the death penalty. I don’t think the Sadducees even believed in angels so that would have been ridiculous for them I suppose. And why would the Jewish leadership physically take someone simply claiming to be an angel to Pontious Pilate? Did the Jews think that PP would take an angel as a serious threat to his (PP) rule in Judea? I’m thinking through my keyboard. sorry..
Any thoughts?
Joe,
The Jews certainly did not think Jesus was claiming to be an angel. They would never have arrested Him much less crucified Him for that. They understood He was claiming to be God. The problem with the JW is they began with a dogmatic premise and let it trample everything else. One must interpret a passage in its own context. To use Genesis 6 “sons of God” (angels) to interpret what the Jews of Jesus’ day meant is a good example of bad interpretation. Over and over we find evidence of Jesus’ divinity—His power over disease, demons, nature, His claim to forgive sin, His claim of externality, His statement to Satan about not tempting the Lord your God all speak to this. Anyone who cannot see this chooses not to see it. The evidence is overwhelming.
Hi Don,
A friend of mine asked me why didn’t the disciples nor Paul pray in the name of Jesus but I don’t know what say
Thank you
Gideon,
Please see 1 Corinthians 1.10, 5.4; Ephesians 5.20; Colossians 3.17; James 5.14.
Don, Your article is very interesting, but it leaves me with the question of just what is the Father’s name(?) since Jesus is the God of the Bible…Thanks
Steven,
God is one. He operates in different roles. Consider Daniel 7. Who is the Ancient of Days? Who is one like the Son of man? Who is the child and son in Isaiah 9.6? Who is the mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace?
“… Daniel 7 was a crucial passage for the ancient doctrine of two (good) powers in heaven in ancient Judaism prior to Christianity. Judaism eventually declared the two powers doctrine heretical as it was a useful apologetic for the Christian belief in Jesus as God.” (‘The Unseen Realm,’ Michael S. Heiser, 2015, pg. 250)
Brian,
Daniel 7 is a fascinating passage as it shows YHWH in the role of the Ancient of Days (cf. Revelation 1.13-15) and the Son of man.
Don, I’m currently reading “Revisiting the Corruption of the New Testament: Manuscript, Patristic, and Apocryphal Evidence,’ edited by Daniel B. Wallace. In the book, Dr. Wallace and a other scholars whom he’s mentored , thoroughly dismantle Bart Ehrman’s flawed ‘canon of unorthodoxy’ methodology displayed in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ and other popular books. Ehrman is quoted as saying during a live discussion with Wallace; “My own view is that the Biblical authors thought that Jesus was physically raised from the dead. My own view is that most of the Biblical authors did not think that Jesus was God. The Gospel of John does. I think Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not think that Jesus was God. It’s hard to know what Paul’s view about Jesus’ divinity is, in my opinion. So I think different authors had different points of view, but I don’t think… in most cases I don’t think that it’s affected by textual variation.” (pg. 89) And even after Erhman argued that the New Testament manuscripts have been corrupted by orthodox scribes, Dr. Wallace had gotten him to admit that no cardinal doctrine has been affected by any textual variation. It’s amazing that many people, ‘intellectuals’ and non-intellectuals alike, still take Ehrman seriously when he’s been decisively refuted by Wallace, the late Bruce Metzger (Ehrman’s former mentor), and several other highly esteemed experts. Indeed, I pity Ehrman for his silly but destructive pride and contradictictory confusion. But I detest even more all the spiritual damage that he continues to cause. I sadly believe that Ehrman’s become an effective satanic tool.
Brian,
Ehrman has made himself an enemy of Christ. His positions and statement are becoming increasing bizarre.
Don, I thought this chart interesting in the Daniel B. Wallace edited NT apologetic book that I’m reading; “Table 6.1 – Degree of Certainty for Jesus as (The Greek word which I can’t type here) God… Passage (s): No Reason to Doubt: John 1:1, John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1… A High Degree of Probability: John 1:18, Romans 9:5, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20… A Lower Degree of Probability: Matthew 1:23, John 17:3, Acts 20:28, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 2:2, 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Jude 4… Too Uncertain to Allow Any Reliance: 1 Timothy 3:16… ” (pg. 266) Do you agree with this assessment, Don?
Brian,
Wallace is looking at statements based on their grammar and sentence structure, not considering the larger context, that the NT writers were convinced Jesus was God. In this larger context, I think Wallace is engaging in a silly exercise. Jesus is ether God or not God. It is really that simple.
LORD vs Lord
John, in his gospel chapter 12, says of Jesus that the person Isaiah saw in Isaiah chapter 6 (Lord) was Jesus.
If both LORD and Lord equals God then there’s no question that Jesus is God.
Don, have you written about the differences between the two spellings of LORD and Lord?
Joe,
The difference between LORD and Lord is one is YHVH (Jehovah) and the other Adonay (first seen in Genesis 15.2)—two different names of the same God.
Don, I agree. Sometimes even well intentioned experts can get carried away and miss the forrest from the trees. As you’ve noted before, verses like Romans 1:20 are sufficient enough to persuade anyone who is open to the truth.
Don,
In Mal 3:1 is Lord and LORD the same person?
3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
Joe,
Yes.
Don,
The author of this study has an historicist background, which I do not concur, but the comprehensive word study of bible verses is worth examining on the Holy Trinity.
The Truth of the Trinity – One in Purpose https://comeoutofher.org/the-holy-trinity-deception
I believe that the Scriptures on this study show that Messiah is subservient to His Father. But Messiah is deity and is to be revered as He is one in thought/purpose with His Father. The understanding about their relationship is beyond our understanding, but it seems that the trinity doctrine of three equal parts does not align with Scripture.
TEnglish,
The “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians 2 means “departure” and refers to the Rapture, not something that occurred in the 4th century. God is one. The descriptions of God as Father, Son, and Spirit are equal and seem to be operational titles. The subordination of Christ to His Father is a functional subordination. We see God manifest Himself in many roles. In addition to Father, Son, Spirit, He appears in many different roles. For example, after the resurrection, Christ appeared as the Angel of the Lord, as a young man, as a gardener, as a traveler on the road to Emmaus.
Don,
Again, I appreciate your insight. I was not familiar with ‘functional subordination’, vs. ‘ontological subordination.’ Thank you.
Earlier, you mentioned ‘absolutely’ celebrating Christmas. I have found that of nearly 8000 verses in the NT not one mentions Christ, the 12 Apostles, 1st C saints nor any other humans celebrating Christ’s birth with the exception of the Magi. In fact, only 3 birthdays appear mentioned in the bible – Job 1.4-5; Pharoah, Gen. 40.20-22; Herod, Matt. 14.6-Mk. 6.21. Historically, we absolutely rejoice in His incarnation. Is this all about Romans 14.5?
TEnglish,
Yes. Every believer has freedom in this area.
We actually never read of one instance in the newly formed CHURCH – The Body of Christ, of believers celebrating Christ’s birthday nor personal birthdays. Yet, we are encouraged to commemorate our Lord’s death (Luke22.19).
Here’s a brief study on Birthdays that I found interesting. Birthday Truth.pdf – Google Drive
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgQzHyEByZRUMn5u2HbbHVbJUFGkPf2z/view?usp=sharing
Birthday Study Link
The falling away in II Thess. 2 is what we have witnessed in the recent past. The falling away is people turning from faith, not the Rapture, and we watched this phenomenon. This is only one of the two stipulations listed in our Bible before the Rapture can manifest. The other of course is the abomination of desolation. If you simply do not change the words in your Bible, this truth is obvious. But you feel you can change the actual recorded words. What power gave you this obligation, to actually change the Word of God? This was not a wise choice on your part. I know you will not post these words, but you should consider them. If your interpretation is incorrect, you are harming the faith of your readers. If my understanding is incorrect, I will receive from God a just reward, if my understanding is correct, I will also receive from God, a just reward. The same is also true for you.
Daniel,
I didn’t change the Word, the KJV translators did. All translations before them rendered ἀποστασία “departure” or “departing.” Take a look at Tyndale, Coverdale, the Great Bible. They got “departure” correct but made it “a departure” rather than “the departure,” ἡ ἀποστασία. The Latin Vulgate reads dicessio, “withdrawal.” The KJV translators took it upon themselves to change the Word of God and render ἡ ἀποστασία “the departure” as “a falling away.” Terrible error which has led to massive confusion and misunderstand, which you are exhibiting. I have explained this to you before but you refuse to do any research. You prefer making false accusations. The whole point of Paul’s address was to assure the Thessalonians they were not experiencing the Day of the Lord, which false teachers had told them they were experiencing due to their trials. Paul gave them a sure sign, the Rapture, to prove that the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, had not come.
Rather than facing the possibility you have made an error in you understanding, you chose the cowardly path and deleted the evidence I presented to you, I’m truly disappointed.
Daniel,
You continue to repeat the same arguments even after I sent you statements by the KJV translators about their work. You refuse to do research, refuse to look at the Greek text, that shows your error. There is no point in posting information that has been proven false.
Are you telling me the 47 names that worked from the original texts listed in my 153-year-old Bible are an elaborate lie? You refuse to compare sister prophecies, and you refuse to post credible information you received, is this an honest path? It is not that I refuse to research this topic, you refuse to show your readers my results. I know why you will not post the research! You will not allow me an equal playing field because I pose a threat to the understanding you have presented. This was a cowardly path to take, completely controlling the narrative. When you handle your website in this manner, you deny credible opinions to be recorded for your readers.
Daniel,
How many times must I explain this? You maintain the KJV is a perfect translation and the translators could not make a mistake. I have been patient, and shown you from the Greek text, multiple times, mistakes the KJV translators made and how the translators wrote that they did not make a perfect translation. You repeat the same argument. Why would I post arguments with no validity? And if I do not post your fallacious arguments, you insult me, calling me cowardly. Take your insults elsewhere.
Don, do the “Original Texts” even exist? And if they do exist (on earth), then where are they to be found? (Psalms 12 6-7.)
But if they don’t exist, then the translations become an individual’s own personal judgment call as to which “good” version he/she uses as the final authority.
What purpose would God’s inspiration serve without His preservation?
Summed up: will God have a problem at The Judgment Seat of Christ?
Carla,
No autographs exist. We have thousands of copies and by comparing them have an extremely reliable text, far greater than any other ancient literature. Metzger wrote, “the textual critic of the New Testament is embarrassed by the wealth of material.” Metzger, B. M., and Ehrman, B. D. The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration. Fourth edition. New York. Oxford University Press. 51.
Hi Carla! 🤗
The fact that i got saved and others are getting saved and being brought by God to the truth is testimony that God’s word IS the Holy Bible. Have never doubted this in my life. The fact that we get saved and receive the seal of the Spirit is the main thing i believe. The God of the Bible IS the Spirit we receive. Jesus said that Spirit “will lead you into all truth”. This is just a fact.
I normally stay away of these translation issues because to me its not of faith. Faith requires BELIEVING what God says. 2 Tim.2:15 requires us to STUDY… to shew ourselves approved UNTO GOD. (not men) and He is along for the journey with us. Eph.4:1-7.
Some just are comfy reading their English Bible. I love the Hebrew greek word studies, as they have,shewn me so much more! I believe its more important to ” think on ” what is said and believe it and then God gives the understanding . and comparing spiritual things with spiritual..
God is always faithful and fair. We can count on Him “who cannot lie”. I dont even think about the Judgement seat of Christ because Col.2&3 say WE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM …now. And Eph.2 says,we are ” Gods workmanship”. He WILL LEAD a seeker to the truth of Him i believe everytime, and i think He LOVES TO DO IT! 😃🎯🙏
The blessings of grace and peace unto you sister!
The Catholic English Standard came from the Latin Vulgate text, but the 1611 KJV was derived from the original text, or at least that is what my People’s Standard Edition has recorded. This is what is recorded, “The king promptly ordered a new version, and fifty-four learned men were set apart for the task. But before they commenced, several of them had died, so that the list was reduced to forty-seven names. These were divided into six classes, to each of which a portion of the original text was assigned.” I know you dislike me personally, but this is credible research, and should be shared with Carla because of the curiosity she has expressed.
Daniel,
I don’t dislike you personally. I dislike that you are unwilling to learn, unwilling to research, unwilling to accept facts, unwilling to listen to anyone who disagrees with you, showing you are wrong. I have no quarrel with The People’s Standard Edition Version. It’s a great Bible. I have no quarrel with the KJV translators. They were good men. My point, which I have stated several times, is that they were not perfect. They made mistakes. The translators went to the Greek manuscripts they had and also used earlier translations. Most of their work (70-90%) was based on Tyndale’s work. This is what the People’s Bible states if you read the cover page. You deny this. You deny the translators own words that they did not consider their work perfect. This is what I find exasperating and intolerable.
Hi Don!
One thing i find so interesting about word studies and translation studies is that there are times where i have gotten a completely different perspective on a verse using different translations, but that the compliment each other! Thats so crazy awesome to me!
Example
Ephesians 3:9 KJV — And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
I noted in your NT Study Bible translation (for example) youve translated the word in Eph.3:9 for “fellowship”as “dispensation”. Some have translated it ” administration” too. But its interesting because one of the noteable problems in the time of the writing of Ephesians… there was a
” fellowship” problem between those who first trusted and those who were new altogether of the nations. But on the other other hand Paul is laying out an “administration” or a “dispensation” that God has put in place BETWEEN the time Israel was cast away and His appearing in Glory!
Two lessons in these two translated words! And they both make sense ! Haha!😆
I just think God is wholly awesome and His word we need more than anything else!
Another verse with 2 lessons in 2 different translations is of course Deut.32:8 which we discussed on this site several times.
Deuteronomy 32:8 KJV — When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy 32:8 RSV — When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Deut.32:8 LXX When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.
To me this is worthy of being quiet and thinking about all we have been given to learn and think on
with the copies we have of the autographs and lexicons and concordances.
Such a blessing for us to have it all and that we can redeem the time trying to dig in to God’s Wisdom which is much greater than man’s.
Appreciate your stand on this topic Don. Very rare today brother!!
Keep trusting God ONLY y’all! Amen! 🤗🎯🙏
Ephesians 3:9 KJV — And to make all men see what is the FELLOWSHIP of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Post author: “I have no quarrel with the KJV translators. They were good men. My point, which I have stated several times, is that they were not perfect. They made mistakes”.
These statements were VERY kind.
Post author: “You are unwilling to learn, unwilling to research”.
A few summarizing excerpts from “THE GREAT ECCLESIASTICAL CONSPIRACY”
(A Wilderness Voice htt://awildernessvoice.com > GEC)
“Presently, we only believe in the ‘inspiration’ (2 Timothy 3:16) and accuracy of the ‘koine’ Greek autograph-texts of the New Testament. However in the past, what translations that were produced were not as reliable for numerous obvious reasons, not the least of which is ‘ecclesiastical’ ambition. As history pans out, what we presently call the Bible was shaped into a scepter of power in the hands of popes, kings and would-be kings to further consolidate their power over the masses. Undoubtedly, it would be naive to ignore that this very ambition tainted the translations from about Jerome (AD 342-420) onward. This reached new heights at a time when ‘bishops’ sought the approval of kings to authorize translations that had been purposefully skewed toward their ‘ecclesiastical’ paradigm.”
“First, Henry VIII evicted the Catholic ‘church’ from England because the Pope refused to annul his marriage with Catherine of Aragon and sanction his illicit relationship with Anne Boleyn. The break with Rome came in 1534, when Parliament passed the Supremacy Act, making Henry head of the ‘church’ of England. Approximately at this time a William Tyndale, who was a Greek scholar, a graduate of Oxford and Cambridge, had surmised that the greatest problem was that the scriptures were hidden from the eyes of the people. There had been the attempt in the past to replace the Greek and Hebrew text with Latin to keep the true meaning of the scriptures from the people, concealing them in a dead language that only scholars knew. The clergy covered up their abominations and idolatries by hiding the scriptures from the people’s eyes and darkening the right sense of the scriptures by their fallacious arguments. This went well beyond mere verbal deceit to tamper with the scriptural text. It was a ‘conspiracy’ conceived in hell. Tyndale was subsequently martyred for his efforts to expose this tyranny of the ‘papal church’ who altered the scriptures to suit their own purpose. All but two of his Bibles were destroyed before several important events occurred”.
“Henry was somewhat sympathetic to Luther’s views, which opened England as never before to Protestant influences, including translating, printing and importing Protestant Bibles. Some men, such as Coverdale, were inspired to continue in the spirit of Tyndale’s work.There was also the Geneva Bible produced, which effected great changes throughout Europe. In the tradition of Tyndale, these Bibles no longer promoted the divine right of kings and ruling ‘bishops’ but instead recognized the ‘equality’ (Galatians 3:28) of ‘joint heirship’ (Romans 8:17) to ALL believers. To kings and ‘bishops’ who exercised absolute authority over the masses, THIS WAS INTOLERABLE. More than anything else, this set the stage for the ‘king’s translation’ of a new Bible.”
“An understanding of the political climate of the early 16th century is crucial if we are to comprehend the motives and logic behind the ‘king’s new translation’ (KJV). King James was a staunch advocate of the divine right of kings, as facilitated by puppet ‘bishops’. This was the Anglican answer to ‘papal’ succession, in which active resistance to pope or king was considered a sin worthy of eternal damnation. The ‘king’s new Bible’ would be translated to solidify the station of both ‘king’ and ‘bishops’, preserving and advancing a system of ‘church’ government that stood in antithesis to Christ’s example and teachings that continues to do so until this very day. Undoubtably, King James did his part in preserving the ongoing ‘conspiracy’. There is little doubt in our minds but that a clandestine scheme lay at the heart of James’ decision to translate his new Bible. This is only a sample of the kind of political jockeying that was going on behind the scenes and the ambition that sponsored the translating, editing and publication of ‘the king’s’ new Bible, which could not escape being tainted by such ambition.”
“King James prohibited his translators from removing ‘the old ecclesiastical words’ that had taken generations to weave into the text. He had to make a special emphasis to keep them, since any honest translator would have translated them out. King James intended to keep them no matter what the translators discovered. The King James translators, laboring under an ‘institutional church’ mentality, selected the strongest words possible which conveyed the idea that the people must submit to the authority of the clergy. In this way King James could control the people through the ‘church’, of which he was Supreme Ruler.” (Dusty Owens – quote taken from “It Shall Not Be So Among You” by Dr. Norman Park). By the adulteration and misrepresentation of the scriptures, ambitious men justified their jobs in a system ruled by despotic pontiff kings and their hireling ‘bishops’. This is no less than a ‘conspiracy’ that continues to this very day.”
“The following questions may help us see the depth of this ‘conspiracy’:
1. How did the Greek word ‘ekklesia’, meaning ‘a called-out assembly’, come to be translated ‘church’, a word that is neither Greek or English but is of doubtful Latin or perhaps Scottish origin and implies ‘temple’ worship? Some believe it to be of pagan origin. Regardless, what is a word that is neither Greek nor English doing in a Greek to English translation?
2. Why did the Greek words ‘presbuteros’ (the elderly), ‘apostolos’ (‘envoy or sent one’), and ‘diakonos’ (‘servant’), remain untranslated into their Anglicized form?
3. Why was the Greek word ‘presbuteros’ (older or elderly) translated ‘priest’? Why indeed! There is little doubt that these words remained untranslated so the clergy could redefine them, interpreting them with the strongest ‘institutional’ and ‘hierarchical’ connotations. Was this mere ignorance, or a means of creating a ruling class of super saints?
4. It is clear to us that down through the years the scriptures have been subjected to papal tampering. There even remains evidence that some of the early manuscripts were altered. ‘But almost all authorities on the text agree that they preserve a better text than the standardized 5th century one, which shows clear signs of having been edited.’ (Erdmans Handbook to the Bible, pp. 73).”
“Determined to ensure that the translation process was prudently guided, the freedom of the translators was limited by drafting fifteen (15) rules of translation, which were approved by King James.
Two of these rules (#1 & #3) are of special importance:
1.) The ordinary Bible read in the ‘church’, commonly called
the Bishops Bible, was to be followed and as little altered
as the truth of the original will permit.
3.) The old Ecclesiastical words to be kept, vis. The word ‘church’
not to be translated.
Rule number three (#3) was clearly designed to ensure that Tyndale’s translation of the Greek word ‘ekklesia’ as ‘congregation’ instead of ‘church’ would NOT be used in the King’s new Bible. Tyndale had translated the Greek word ‘ekklesia’ as ‘congregation’ and revealed his contempt for the word ‘church’ by using the word ‘churches’ in Acts 19:37 to refer to heathen temples. Could he have been trying to tell us something? Clearly, an accurate translation was not the objective of the translators. As if that were not enough, when the translation was complete, a ‘bishop’ by the name of Richard Bancroft took the final draft into his home and further altered it before giving it over to the king to be published.”
“There are multiple examples of passages that appear by KJV translators to obviously have been altered to advance the authority of king and clergy, some of which are NOT translations at all but are either ‘paraphrases’ or outright ‘fabrications’. A few outstanding examples are the words ‘have used the office of a deacon’ in 1 Tim. 3:13. One instance in which the King James translators tried to preserve their ‘old ecclesiastical words’ and imply ‘office’ rather than ‘service’ is Romans 11:13. ‘For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine ‘office’ (‘diakonia’).’ Nowhere else in the total of the New Testament is this word (‘diakonia’) translated ‘mine office’. Another instance of the baseless use of the word ‘office’ can be found in 1Timothy 3:1: ‘This is a true saying, If a man desire the ‘office’ of a ‘bishop’, he desireth a good work.’ What in the world is a ‘bishop’? We thought it was a piece on a chessboard! There is that word ‘office’ again! Does it make you suspicious? Us too! Here once again, the King James translators, in obedience to the fifteen (15) rules of translation, were preserving the ‘old ecclesiastical words’, even the ones that were NOT in the original Greek text, such as ‘office’. W.E. Vine explains, ‘the word ‘office’ in the phrase ‘the office of a Bishop’, has nothing to represent it in the original.” The translators, under the king’s injunction to keep the main terms of the ‘church’ of England’s ecclesiastical form, make two main errors. The first is adding a word to the text that doesn’t appear in the Greek, i.e. ‘office’. There is neither a word in the text for ‘office’ NOR the idea of ‘office’ outside their own paradigm. The second is an error in translation. The word translated ‘bishop’ is the Greek ‘episkopos’. The word means to ‘oversee’, to ‘tend’. Vine defines it thus: “EPISKOPOS, lit., an overseer (epi, over, skopeo, to look or watch), whence Eng. ‘bishop’…”. The passage in 1st Timothy more accurately reads, ‘If a man wants to oversee, he desires a good work’ (John M. Bland, Men Who Would be Kings).”
“It is ludicrous to many now that the Protestant ‘church’ could have been guilty of carrying on any of the traditions of the Catholic ‘church’ that it so loudly objected to. To some, the idea of an ongoing ‘conspiracy’ is impossible with their Bible in hand. They profess that it is the ultimate authority, the only true Bible, the authorized Bible, the King James Bible. Authorized by whom? No less than King James himself!”
I could go on and on with excerpts from this lengthly book. It would take up too much room and I want to be aware of that. There is a wealth of historical information out there that exposes the “politicalization” of what we call the Bible. Should we be surprised. By the way… I mostly use the KJV. However, I have become aware of the areas of the “altered scriptures” that are easily exposed by tools that are now readily at our fingertips.
You say 70- 90% of the 47’s work was based on Tyndale’s work, but that is opposite of what my Bible recorded. Either the research I quoted is incorrect, or your statement is incorrect. This time you did actually post the fallacious argument I made, and the quote you recorded plainly shows the 47 were assigned the original text. The People’s Standard Edition that I own does not contain a cover page. You have recorded the words my Bible recorded, but you will not leave them as recorded. You insist on adding your own talking points, please back them up with a quote from the cover page you wrote about. If you cannot back up your statements with actual proof, why do you record them as truth? I do appreciate the fact you recorded the proof I presented. Thank you!
Daniel,
https://archive.org/details/peoplesstandarde00phil/page/n9/mode/2up. Read it yourself, “Translated from the Hebrew and Greek, and carefully compared with former translations.” Anyone who has done a little research on how we got our English Bibles knows that Tyndale was the primary source of the KJV. The Bible’s that followed him, Coverdale, Matthew, Great Bible (Cranmer), Geneva, Bishop’s, and KJV all relied on Tyndale’s work as their base. This is why I have lost patience with you. You refuse to do any research. You make statements without evidence and expect people to accept them. You continue to hold to false views even when they are proved wrong.
You actually recorded my evidence which came directly from my copy of the People’s Standard Edition, and it says the 47 men that wrote the 1611 KJV used the original text to complete their task. Read the words you recorded, it was the quote from Sept.10. Thank you, again!
Daniel,
Please reread what I wrote on 9/11, “The translators went to the Greek manuscripts they had and also used earlier translations.” You said they did not use earlier translations, they only used the original text. There is no “original text.” There are only copies. The KJV translators had fewer manuscripts (copies) than we have today. You maintain that the KJV is a perfect translation and contradict the words of the 47 men you cite. Your greatest problem is that you cannot say three simple words, “I was wrong.” It is pointless to converse, much less argue with someone who will never admit he is wrong. Find another forum.
You men certainly make a great argument, but your proof is lacking. The website provided taught me nothing. The People’s Standard Edition tells a different story then either of you men have provided. Can either of you list the 47 men chosen to write the 1611 KJV? They are presented in tabular form in my Bible. Every one of these men reviewed all the completed work. Then their work was reviewed by Dr. Smith, Bishop of Gloucester, and by Dr. Bilson, Bishop of Winchester, “from whose hands it passed to the press, and appeared in 1611”. Just to prove you gentlemen are correct please supply the list of the 47 names of the men that wrote the 1611 KJV. If you are able to present these names, I would be a little more inclined to believe you are not using talking points only. You say “there is no original text, yet my Bible explicitly states these men used the original text to write the 1611 KJV. I supply quotes taken directly out of my Bible, I have no need to manipulate words I use, I wish I could also say the same about the words you use. Talking points are not proof. If there are no original texts my Bible is wrong, and you are correct, I cannot in good conscience believe you over the words written in my Bible. You say things with no proof offered. The whole reason for this dispute is because you want the right to change or, manipulate the KJV, to back your beliefs. I’m for the most part computer illiterate, but the website you provided me showed me nothing of the claims you make, I was unable to enlarge the pages so I could actually read them. But although I have caused much damage to my Bible, I can still read every word. So, I will have to continue believing the 47 used “original texts” to write the 1611 KJV, and your statement is incorrect.
Daniel,
The names of the 47 are listed on page 22 of the People’s Standard edition. What’s the issue? No one denies this. What is denied is that these men were perfect and produced a perfect translation, which they themselves denied. I provided lengthy proof of this. The People’s Standard, on the title page, states these men used both the manuscripts they had and other translations. You deny this. You deny what your own Bible states! No autographs exists. We have only copies. You do not need to be computer literate to know this. We have many libraries with books that declare this. The difficulty you are having is that you do not want to know the truth. It is right before you, but you repel it.
I recorded what my Bible recorded, “these were divided into six classes, to each of which a portion of the original text was assigned”. If as you say, there are no original texts, what did my Bible mean by this statement?
Daniel,
When they wrote “original text” they meant manuscript copies of the original text. Paul completed the New Testament before he died, about A.D. 67-68. The earliest copy of a New Testament document is about A.D. 125. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript and https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019/02/15/the-earliest-new-testament-manuscripts/.
According to the Son of man, the day the Son of man is revealed, people in Israel should drop anything they are doing and flee. Luke 17:30-31 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. But in Matt. 24:15-18, Jesus gave the same advice; the difference is, Jesus gave this advice because the abomination of desolation has taken place. Jesus Himself made it obvious the two revelations will occur on the same day. These two prophecies must be joined together to realize this truth. Matt. 24:15-18 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. As I recorded earlier, these two prophecies Jesus supplied must be studied together to gather the full message. The Rapture will manifest the day after these two revelations are observed on earth. Those depicted as taken will be the same people gathered in the Rapture, you and me, if we are alive the day of the abomination of desolation. This is truly elementary if you simply combine the two prophecies. I realize that I may be the only soul preaching in this manner, but I wish to change this truth in the near future. Once the two prophecies are studied together folks will begin to understand, but if never combined, understanding will remain a fleeting reality.
Daniel,
In Matthew’s address, Jesus gave a specific time as a sign for Jews to flee, the abomination of desolation. In Luke’s address, the Lord spoke about a general period of time, the Tribulation. The articular “the day” speaks of that time. Use of “day” can mean a 24 hour period, a period of light as opposed to darkness, or a period of time. Jesus use “day” in the latter sense. “The day” and “that day” refers to general time in which the Lord will return, the Tribulation. These two passages do not mean they occur on the same literal “day.” The fleeing cannot mean that when Christ returns is when the abomination of desolation occurs. Such an interpretation would upset the entire Tribulation and prophetic timeline.
Hi Don,
Alongside what’s been said here in refuting Mr. Stanton… the term Son of man seems to be a higly prophetic identifier helper of Jesus from Daniel 7! (which regards Daniel’s people and the holy city )
This could’ve showed those of Israel alive at the time of Jesus ministry who He was! (one like the
Son of man …Dan.7:13). That He would be human and devine …God’s man. And it is an apocolyptic term if you consider the passage. This so could’ve helped them in those days fully identify Him.
This is interesting because not only does Paul not use the term “Son of man”, of Jesus but he also says…
2 Cor.5:16¶Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth KNOW WE HIM NO MORE.
This verse seems to tell that the work of God, “reconciling the world to Himself, was done in Christ, as He goes on to say that anyone IN CHRIST is a new creature. There was no clue of this new creature in Dan.7! Actually this ” reconciling the world unto Himself, could tie into Rom.11:15.
The likeness of this Son of man… could be seen in the book of Revelation 19:11 and on , 21:5 (which is prophetic and full of OT things, and different than the revelation given to Paul, which is,complete in itself with Jesus as ” Christ Jesus THE LORD”, creator, and sustainer of all creation, in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily. )
This is a little off the subject matter but is so cool to think about! The fact that we today are living in like a parenthesis of time, between Christ’s suffering and glory in an adminstration that,was NOT KNOWN in the OT is also not known by many today. That we live in the FULNESS (pleroma) of God’s great love and grace in the complete work of Christ and what God WROUGHT for Him (Eph.4:32) too is not very well known:( This is sad to me because it is apparent that something happens that will change this administration (dispensation) for the world… and the judgement of God will come. This is even made apparent in 2 Thess.2 which was written in the administration before OURS today i believe.
I wonder if when the two witnesses arrive, then we will go up, as they seem to usher in those last times for Israel. God always has a witness on earth. This may be the when we go up…?
It bothers me when one is want to preach that we today will be in the middle of Israel’s things and THEIR last things! Mr. Stanton is even using a prophecy of “the Son of man” for a possibility fo
OUR times! But we can search and see…. Thank God! Paul said even in the Acts period…
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 ¶And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Bobbi,
Mr. Stanton insists the Church is in prophecy, even though no Scripture supports such an idea. Prophecy only concerns Jews and Gentiles, not Church, God’s new creation. We will leave before the two witnesses appear. They will minister during the first 3 1/2 years and be killed at the midpoint. It is not know how long a period may exist between the Rapture and the appearance of the Beast, the beginning of the seven years. It may be a day, it may be years. Nothing in Scripture defines this. We only know that the Church will not be present. Satan does not know when God will remove His Church. He must be constantly preparing someone, possibly several people, to serve as the Beast.
Yes i agree with you Don. Regarding “the gospel to be preached in THOSE DAYS… The Lord said… Matthew 24:14 KJV — And THIS gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Paul’s gospel of the grace of God is completely different doctrine along with the unsearchable riches of Christ which we have today. How one can even compare the fulness
of God in Christ (which is written regarding a completely different part, people and and function of the Lord’s household) to Matt.24 or Luke 17 is sad, i don’t think he can hear you :(
I mean we live in the time of a mystery when Israel has been cast away for a time. I pray the Lord wake him up. 🙏📣👂
@Daniel Stanton
Daniel’s prophecy has to do with the SPECIFIC people of Israel, and JERUSALEM… as per Daniel 9.
Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Knowing the time that THIS dispensation (Eoh.3:1-7) … Not only is there no earthly headquarters at all.
But Christ IS the Holy of holies, where all the fulness of the Godhead dwelleth IN HIM… and His Spirit is
what seals us IN HIM until day of redemption. Our conversation is IN HEAVEN. There is no national anything in this Body. It is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
Would have to ask you Daniel …what does it mean for me when “THEY” place the abomination of desolation, in THEIR earthly temple”? This has nothing to do with us today. Nor is there a physical temple built for YHWH and hasn’t been one since 70 ad, and one need get a hold of the fact that
Acts 28:20-28 shews Israel departed the scene upon Paul’s final declaration of Isaiah 6!
Can you see these differences? I pray that you will see and acknowledge these differences.
In the prophecy in Luke 17:22-37; Jesus spoke in the Galilee on the way to His crucifixion; He spoke about the two days of the Son of man. Jesus describes what the conditions will be on the first of these two days from verse 22-33; the second day, the day we will be gathered, begins in verse 34 with the words, “I tell you, in that night. The first of these two days the Son of man will be revealed, verse 30 “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” Every verse is aligned with the words Jesus spoke in the Olivet Discourse. Matthew chapter 24 mimics most of the same precise points. Jesus begins both prophecies warning of false Christ’s; although Jesus only mentions the days of Noah in the Olivet Discourse, He uses both the days of Noah and Lot in the first prophecy. As I recorded earlier, Jesus applied the same specific scenarios as to who, and how to escape the calamity unfolding. Both prophecies include those taken and those left. Both prophecies include the bodies, or carcasses the taken will leave on the earth. Simply compare, and combine the two prophecies Jesus gave for us, then a person can understand Jesus was describing the Rapture. I have to add, in the Olivet Discourse, the Son of man is revealed and directly the Rapture, Matt. 24:39b-41 “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Both prophecies include the coming of the Son of man, in Matthew chapter 24 Jesus simply begins earlier in the first day and tells us about the abomination of desolation occurring before the Son of man is revealed. I know how difficult understanding all we are given in our Bible can be; I try to keep things literal and simple. These two prophecies align and should be studied together.
Daniel,
What you are failing to do is understand the meaning of “day” in context. You want it to mean either a 24 hour period or a twelve hour period of daylight. But “day” can mean a much longer period. For example, “the day of the Lord” is the Tribulation and the kingdom, over 1,000 years. “Day” must be interpreted in context, comparing Scripture with Scripture. In the Luke passage, “day” means the Tribulation period, in particular, the last three and a half years. See how “day” is defined and used: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2250/kjv/tr/0-1/.
When you know Biblical truth contradicts a statement you recorded, and that Biblical truth was presented to you; you simply avoid posting it. WOW!
Daniel,
I do not post it because I have answered it more than once. You keep posting the same errors, even though I showed from the Scriptures your error. You will not acknowledge what I have written about the KJV, about the “original languages,” the proof I showed about ἀποστασία, how all translators rendered it “departure” before the KJV, and that it corresponds to “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him” in verse 1. It is pointless to converse with you because you will not read sources I provide and will not do any research. When I do not reply, you resort to insult. Find another forum to express your false ideas.
I was referring to the statement about the two prophets holding court in the beginning of the final seven years. If after they die, the very next thing on the agenda is Christ’s kingdom; what made you record this statement? “They will minister during the first 3 1/2 years and be killed at the midpoint.” Clearly Rev. 11:14-15 taught us the two prophets will die and quickly Christ’s kingdom will begin. Do you care to amend your statement, or leave it as you recorded it, or maybe ignore the question again?
Daniel,
As I wrote before, you ignore the bowl judgments. Christ will not return after they are complete. As I wrote before, it is difficult to make the seals, trumpets, and bowls into precise chronological markers. Revelation is theater, some scenes are repeated. The best we can do is identify what happens at the beginning, the middle, and the end. The only clearly time markers are the numbers, 1260 days, 42 months, 1,000 years. If you would understand this, your question is answered. Again, as I wrote before, explain their ministering during the last half of the Tribulation, then being killed, then people partying, then resurrecting, after the battle of Armageddon, after Christ returns? Again, I provide the following: http://www.prophecydepotministries.net/2019/part-two-the-timing-of-the-two-witnesses-of-revelation-11/. Will you read it? Please stop asking questions I have already answered!