Introduction
The subject of “predestination” troubles many. The primary reason for distress is the idea God has chosen some for heaven and some for hell and one’s destiny is fixed. The Bible does not teach this nor is this what the Bible means by predestination. Theologians have spilt much ink arguing Calvinism versus Arminianism and created an arcane technical vocabulary with words such as sublapsarianism and supralapsarianism.
A study of predestination requires examination of related areas–God’s foreknowledge, election, man’s will, and how divine and human wills interact. While we cannot have full knowledge of these operations, God has provided a framework and enough information to understand the subject sufficiently. The goal of this study is to examine the Bible’s revelation on this subject and remedy the confusion that exists.
Biblical Terms Concerning Predestination
Foreknowledge (προγινώσκω) is part of God’s omniscience, that God knows everything. The verb προγινώσκω is formed by the preposition πρό (before) + γινώσκω (know). It means to know something beforehand and as it relates to man is confined to time. It occurs in the following verses: Acts 26.5; Romans 8.29, 11.2; 1 Peter 1.20; 2 Peter 3.17.
“Elect” or “Choose” (verb) ἐκλέγομαι occurs in the following verses: Mark 13.20; Luke 6.13, 10.42, 14.7; John 6.70, 13.18, 15.16, 19; Acts 1.2, 24, 6.5, 13.17, 15.7, 22, 25; 1 Corinthians 1.27-28; Ephesians 1.4; James 2.5. The most helpful verses are Mark 13.20 and Ephesians 1.4. One might object that verses which speak of Jesus choosing the Twelve should be considered (Luke 6.13; Acts 1.2, 24) but these seem problematic since John 6.70, 13.18 include Judas as one of the chosen.
“Elect” or “Chosen” (noun) ἐκλεκτός provides more help than the verb. It occurs in the following verses: Matthew 20.16 (KJV), 22.14, 24.22, 24, 31; Mark 13.20, 22, 27; Luke 18.7, 23.35; Romans 8.33, 16.13; Colossians 3.12; 1 Timothy 5.21; 2 Timothy 2.10; Titus 1.1; 1 Peter 1.1-2, 2.4, 6, 9; 2 John 1.1, 13; Revelation 17.14. Most of these verses clearly declare that God has chosen some and that these are synonymous with believers.
“Called” καλέω is a verb frequently used (146x) and means “to call,” or “to be called or named.” Useful occurrences are the following. Matthew 9.13, 22.3-4, 8-9; Mark 2.17; Luke 5.32, 14.16-17, 24; John 10.3; Romans 8.30, 9.11, 25; 1 Corinthians 1.9, 7.22, 15.9; Galatians 1.6, 15, 5.8, 13; Ephesians 4.4; 1 Thessalonians 2.12, 4.7, 5.24; 2 Thessalonians 2.14; 1 Timothy 6.12; 2 Timothy 1.9; Hebrews 9.15, 11.8; 1 Peter 1.15, 2.21, 3.9, 5.10; 2 Peter 1.3; 1 John 3.1; Revelation 19.9. The word’s meaning in terms of our subject is synonymous with “chosen” or “elect.”
“Predestine” προορίζω occurs six times, five being from Paul: Acts 4.28; Romans 8.29-30; 1 Corinthians 2.7; Ephesians 1.5, 11.
These words reveal God has elected, predestined, or chosen certain individuals. In every case, the terms refer to believers. The Scriptures never state God has predestined or chosen unbelievers.
All Enlightened
The Bible states God has revealed Himself to every human being and that everyone knows God exists. God holds each of us responsible to respond or to reject Him. Consider the following verses:
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man (John 1.9).
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1.19-20).
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister (Colossians 1.23)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2.11).1
Predestination and the Angelic Conflict
No discussion of predestination is complete without a consideration of God’s purpose in creating man. One of the principal reasons God created mankind was to resolve the angelic conflict.2 Job is the story of a righteous man whom God used as an example to reveal how man’s choice will vindicate God against Satan’s accusations. In the first chapter we read:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it” (Job 1.6-7)
Little is known of the activities in heaven but God has disclosed that angelic beings are accountable to God and have to “front and center” to report on their activities. Hearing Satan’s report, the Lord asked him a question:
The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil” (Job 1.8).
Satan is the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4.4) and the puppet-master of the world’s governments (Matthew 4.8-9; Luke 4.4-7). Before God created man, Satan had a headquarters in Eden (Ezekiel 28.11-19). Since then, he has roamed the earth observing earth’s activities and influencing its rule. Based upon Satan’s reconnaissance, God asked him his opinion of Job, the premier man on the earth. Satan clearly knew Job and one can sense the sneer in his response:
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face” (Job 1.9-11).
Satan’s counter-argument was Job feared God because God protected him (had Satan tried to harm Job?) and made him rich. He challenged God that if He removed His protection and blessings, Job would curse Him. God responded He would “take that bet” and placed Job under Satan’s power.3
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord (Job 1.12).
Following Satan’s destruction of Job’s livestock, servants, and children, we read:
20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 He said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” 22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God (Job 1.20-22).
In Chapter 2, is the record of Satan’s next report before the Lord. We read:
The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause” (Job 2.3).
God noted Job’s faithfulness again to Satan even in the face of Satan’s attack. Irked by his failure to get Job to curse God after destroying his family and wealth, Satan conceived another line of attack:
4 Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” 6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life” (Job 2.4-6).
As a result, Satan afflicted Job with extremely painful boils. We read:
9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!” 10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips (Job 2.9-10).
After much discussion by Job’s friends of the nature and occurrence of evil, the book ends with God revealing His wisdom and power to Job. He peppered Job with a series of unanswerable questions (Job 38-42). In response, Job replied:
1 Then the Lord said to Job, 2 “Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it.” 3 Then Job answered the Lord and said, 4 “Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth. 5 “Once I have spoken, and I will not answer; Even twice, and I will add nothing more” (Job 40.1-5).
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said, 2 “I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. 3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.” 4 ‘Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’ 5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You; 6 Therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42.1-6).
Satan’s argument to God was that Job feared God because God had given him health and wealth, not because of Who God is. That was the battleground. Job persevered (Job 13.15) and trusted God despite his undeserved sufferings and slander levied against him. Job’s wife counseled him to curse God and die (Job 2.9). His friends advised him to acknowledge his sin since the innocent do not suffer. Job made a choice. He chose to trust God against appearances. He clung to God, and in the end, God vindicated him before Satan, his wife, his friends (Job 42.7-9), and exalted and rewarded him for his faithfulness (Job 42.10-17). Man will choose God, not as Satan argued, because God gives health or wealth, but solely because of Who He is. Man’s role in resolving the angelic conflict is that by choosing God for Who He is–even when confronted with seemingly irrational and undeserved circumstances–he gives testimony against Satan and the angels who rebelled with him in their choice. The lesson in the realm of predestination is that God has given man a will which man can exercise to choose or reject Him. It is the will of man, his choice to choose God for Who He is, that God will use to condemn Satan in his case against God.
The Argument of God’s Absoluteness in Salvation
Some argue God has predestined man by sovereign decree wholly independent of man’s choice. Below are several passages used in support of this view.
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (Ephesians 1.4-5)
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9.11-16).
In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory (Ephesians 1.11-14).
These passages, according to those who maintain man’s salvation is based solely on God’s choice, demonstrate God has predestined or elected some men wholly apart from what man wills. John 10.26 is interpreted to mean a person believes because God has chosen them to believe. Thus, according to the reasoning of those who maintain that God is absolutely sovereign in the matter of salvation, God chooses to have mercy on some and not on others. Furthermore, it is argued that when one exercises faith, it is God who has drawn the individual and gives them faith (cf. John 6.44-45, 65; Ephesians 2.8; Philippians 1.29). Does this argument have Biblical merit?
Response to the Argument
Several problems exist with the argument. While the passages above seem to indicate God’s absolute sovereignty in the matter of salvation these passages are a subset of a larger body of Scripture on the subject. To gain a sound understanding of predestination and election requires us to consider the entire body of Scripture related to the subject, compare Scripture with Scripture, and interpret them in their context. Failure to do this will result in flawed exegesis and logical inconsistency.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture
God has revealed He is unwilling that any perish. But clearly, some do. Why? If God wills something and it does not come to pass, does it mean He is not sovereign? Consider the following verses:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing [βούλομαι] for any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3.9).
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires [θέλω] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2.3-4).
12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 “If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 “So it is not the will [θέλημα] of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish (Matthew 18.12-14).
These passages are from Peter, Paul, and the Lord Himself. Each declares God wants none to be lost but ALL to be saved. If He wants ALL to be saved and ALL are not saved, what accounts for the discrepancy? In the face of the logic of those who maintain salvation is wholly a matter of God’s sovereign decree are the following statements:
| God chooses some to be saved. |
| God wills that all be saved. |
These two statements form the proposition: “God wills that all be saved but chooses some to be saved.” Such a statement is logically unsound. It cannot be true apart from other information. How do those who maintain God’s will alone is significant in salvation account for this?
Those who maintain salvation is based solely upon God’s sovereign decree teach that the straightforward reading of the text is a misreading of the text. They teach the text should read “all kinds of men,” not, “all men.” Thus, they maintain God does NOT want all to be saved. Related to their concept of predestination and election is their idea of the extent of Christ’s work on the cross. They teach Christ did not die for the whole human race but only for some. Why do they teach this? If Christ died for all, their theology is destroyed.4 Their theology is greater than the Scriptures.
Divine and Human Will
Jesus brought the relationship between the divine and human will into sharp focus with His declaration to the Jews of His day, shortly before His crucifixion. Matthew recorded:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω] to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω]. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'” (Matthew 23.37-39)
This passage reveals the Lord wanted to gather the Jews to Himself and be their King but they WOULD not. Matthew used θέλω for both divine and human will. It should be clear to even a casual reader that God’s will was thwarted by human will. How do we know this? The Lord God Himself said so! Furthermore, He promised He would not return until the Jews asked Him to return. Therefore, we have an explicit statement from the Lord Himself that His return was conditioned upon the Jews’ WILL.5
Many passages speak of man’s will in the execution of divine activity. Consider the following familiar passage:
14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life (John 3.14-16).
Jesus said that “whoever believes in Him shall not perish.” Belief is an act of human will. God will save no one apart from human will, which is revealed by faith (cf. Romans 3.21-22, 4.3-5, 5.1; 1 Corinthians 15.1-2). Having said this, how do we account for the following passages?
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6.44).”
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father (John 6.65).”
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul (Acts 16.14).
The above passages reveal one cannot respond to God unless God draws them. How should these verses be viewed in the light of other Scriptures?
Solving the Issue
We have examined five kinds of passages so far. They are the following:
- Passages that indicate God’s absolute sovereignty in man’s salvation (Ephesians 1.4-5; 11-14; Romans 9.11-16; John 3.3-8; 6.44, 45, 65, 10.26; Ephesians 2.8; Philippians 1.29; 2 Peter 1.2)
- Passages that indicate God is unwilling any should perish (2 Peter 3.9; 1 Timothy 2.3-4; Matthew 18.12-14)
- Passages that indicate God must draw an individual before he can believe (John 6.44, 65; Acts 16.14)
- Passages that indicate all men know God exists and are accountable to Him (John 1.9; Romans 1.19-20; Colossians 1.23; Titus 2.11)
- Passages that indicate man must believe of his own free will (John 3.14-16; Romans 3.21-22, 4.3-5, 5.1; 1 Corinthians 15.1-2)
The Scriptures provide two key verses to help solve the issue of the divine will and man’s will and the nature of predestination and election. One is from Paul and the other from Peter. In Romans 8.29, Paul wrote the Roman church (primarily Gentiles) and defined God’s foreknowledge and predestination. It reads:
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called [κλητός] according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew [προγινώσκω], He also predestined [προορίζω] to become conformed [σύμμορφος] to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined [προορίζω], He also called [καλέω]; and these whom He called [καλέω], He also justified [δικαιόω]; and these whom He justified [δικαιόω], He also glorified [δοξάζω].
Peter, addressing Jewish believers, wrote the following in 1 Peter 1.1-2:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen [ἐκλεκτός] 2 according to the foreknowledge [πρόγνωσις] of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
These passages provide critical information in understanding and resolving the issue of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.
- Believers are the subject of God’s foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification, and His working of all things together for good. Unbelievers are never the subject of these teachings.
- The texts state God predestined and chose those whom He foreknew; thus, foreknowledge precedes predestiny and election. Foreknowledge governs election.
God exists in eternity. Eternity is NOT simply a long time. It is non-time, i.e., timeless. No one really knows what time is but the scientists tell us it is a physical property of space-matter. Time is a fourth dimension of reality in addition to length, height, and width. For man, the present is NOW. For God, past, present, and future are NOW. God is outside time and its constraints. God experiences all events as NOW. We can only experience the present as NOW. Therefore, God sees all decisions we make (or will make) and all events as NOW. In effect, God has all eternity to contemplate each moment we experience in time. We describe God’s foreknowledge as something “future.” But for God, foreknowledge as “future” is meaningless. For Him, it is simply NOW. The chart below illustrates God’s relationship to time.
God inhabits eternity outside the time dimension. Past, present, and future are NOW for Him.
As we have seen, the proposition, “God wills that all be saved but chooses some to be saved” is illogical and can only make sense with additional information. The passages above, Romans 8.28-30 and 1 Peter 1.1-2, provide the missing piece of information. God’s election and predestination of individuals is based upon His foreknowledge, which includes knowledge of all things that do happen and could possibly happen. The Scriptures reveal God has provided a witness of Himself to all men. All men know God exists. The Scriptures reveal God has given man a will to respond or to reject Him. Therefore, what God foresees is man’s response to that knowledge. If an individual responds to the light he has been given, the Lord will provide him with more information. Thus, like Lydia who listened to Paul, God opened her heart to respond (Acts 16.14) to the things she heard. Lydia was willing to know more and God opened her heart to believe Paul’s gospel. Such explanation links all the Scriptures into a logical fit. God has given all men a knowledge of Himself. He desires all be saved. But He has also given men a will to accept or reject Him. A person can say, “I want to know more.” Or he can say, “I have no interest.” If a person responds, God provides more light. If he doesn’t, God doesn’t. The genius of God is He can give man free will and still have things come out exactly as He planned. In this, God is completely sovereign. Therefore, God predestines on the basis of His foreknowledge. Foreknowledge governs predestination but does not determine it since within foreknowledge are events that will not occur (since God knows all possible outcomes). Those who respond to God are those whom he saves; they become the elect and predestined.
Conclusion
Those who argue for God’s absolute sovereignty in man’s salvation have no answer for verses that declare God wants all to be saved. They address the issue by theological legerdemain (Spurgeon called it “theological gunpowder”) by declaring “all men” means “all kinds of men.” But the Scriptures are clear: man has a choice in salvation and God’s will is not uncontested. Ultimately, we have to trust God. If God did not love us, would He have suffered on the cross for us? Does He love some more than others? No, God created each of us His image and loves us equally. God has provided salvation for each person. God has given everyone a choice to respond to His love or reject it. C. S. Lewis wrote, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done. All that are in Hell choose it”6 and “the doors of hell are locked on the inside.”7
1 Paul meant the “knowledge of salvation,” not salvation itself. He was no universalist.
2 I have yet to find a study on predestination in which God’s purpose in creating man is discussed.
3 Satan wished God to be the agent of evil against Job, “put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has.” This was a subtle temptation. Satan seeks to tempt God to not be God (cf. Matthew 4.1-11). God replied He would give Job over to Satan’s power.
4 The extent of the atonement is considered in my article For Whom Did Christ Die?
5 We know EXACTLY when the Lord will return because He told us. He will return when every Jew on the earth says, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”–and not a moment before (cf. Acts 2.36, 38; Romans 11.26).
6 C. S. Lewis. The Great Divorce. New York. Macmillan. 1946. p. 69.
7 C. S. Lewis. The Problem of Pain. New York. Macmillan. 1973. p. 115.
©2014 Don Samdahl. Anyone is free to reproduce this material and distribute it, but it may not be sold.
Don,
I understand this now to be as I thought it actually is. God sees it all and can call his elect (ahead of time since he’s outside of time) by who he sees, past, present and future who made a free will choice to accept him.
Interestingly, I’ve argued this same position with my predestination friends who disagree with this reasoning but that’s their problem.
Romans 1 tells us God turns those who refuse to acknowledge him over to a reprobate mind. He no longer interacts with the conscience and allows them to take their sinfulness to it’s ultimate course. He didn’t force them to do anything just like he doesn’t force anyone to accept him. Is this right?
Now please explain OT passages and Romans 9 that show God seemingly intervening in the hardening of kings and men’s hearts? I’d like to clear that up in my mind.
Bruce,
I think they are two sides of the same coin. In the account of Pharoah, some passages state God hardened Pharoah’s heart. Others, that Pharoah hardened his heart. How does God harden hearts? I think by simply leaving man to his own devices, as Paul wrote in Romans 1.
I’ve kind of read that before, about the Pharaoh.
I used to think that God directly hardened the Pharaohs heart, like in a supernatural way, but after reading it, I noticed that what really happened is:
God’s miracles through Moses and the staff made the Pharaoh harden his heart.
How so?
The Pharaoh saw that God’s power was far greater than anything the Pharaoh’s magicians were able to do. This hurt his pride as a Pharaoh. That’s why he hardened his heart.
Read it again in Exodus and see if it makes sense.
Hope it helps, Bruce.
God bless you.
God says He will give us the desires of our heart. Pharoh desired to resist God and therefore God gave him his desire. Pharohs heart was hardened.
I love the Word, praise be to Jesus!!!
Yes, it’s Romans 1.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart like 7 times before God finally sealed the hardening, if you will. Pharaoh hardened his own heart until God hardened it and allowed him to go against God’s will. God is Sovereign but he didn’t make Pharaoh harden his heart against his own will. Pharaoh did it to himself. Sad story.
Bruce W. writes, “God sees it all and can call his elect (ahead of time since he’s outside of time) by who he sees, past, present and future who made a free will choice to accept him.”
Your position has God learning what is to happen as He observes the choices that people make. As you have God “learning” new things, it would be erroneous to say that God is omniscient as there is always something new for God to learn. If we take God to be omniscient, then God knows everything without having to learn anything by observing what people choose. In this case, God’s knowledge is derived from His infinite understanding of His creation.
Rhutchin,
God is omniscient and it outside but observes in time the choices one will make (for we are in time). Man’s free will is the key to God’s solving the problem of good and evil and resolving the angelic conflict.
The question of fairness comes up. Can a sovereign be unfair? Any action on the part of the sovereign is exactly what the sovereign wants to do. Isn’t fairness simply a view from the party receiving the action? Children at a dinner table may receive different amounts of food. A 17 year old high school football player may get three pieces of fried chicken while the 8 year old may get two and the 3 year old only a drum stick. Can either of the younger children claim unfairness if mom’s intentions were to be fair? Who decides what’s fair?
Does the question of fairness only apply to peers? ( a place with no sovereigns). If a person is the last living human on earth can that person be unfair about anything?
Hi Don,
This subject of predestination and foreknowledge has often stirred in my mind. Reading your article helped a bit but I still cannot crystallize the passages and put them together to set my mind at ease. Could you elaborate on one of the sentences in particular?” In effect, God has all eternity to contemplate each moment we experience in time.”
Perhaps this subject, like you said, is one in which we cannot have full understanding. I would just love to at least have sufficient understanding. Thank you, brother.
Derrick,
Thank you. Since God is outside time, he is not subject to its constraints. For example, with regard to prayer, God can hear billions of prayers at once with no problem. For Him, he has infinite “time” to respond to each one since He is outside of time. In the same regard, He sees and therefore knows the choices we will make for He sees all events as “now.” So God can “elect” one because He already has seen the choice one will make based upon light provided. The really difficult part is understanding the mechanics of the divine and humans wills. I think all we can know is that God provides a certain amount of revelation and men respond either positively or negatively to it. If the former, God will provide more light–God can see all choices a person will make towards Him. Jesus stated no one comes to Him unless the Father draws him. How this works is unclear but man’s will is involved. God is able to keep man’s free will and His sovereignty fully in play. God’s primary purpose in creating man is to resolve the angelic conflict. To do that, He must have free agents. God must allow us choose Him because we want Him. Forced choice or love is out of bounds.
Don, I never understood this issue myself and want to respond. I believe that predestined was God’s plan to save the jew and the gentile the same way. God’s plan is what was predestined. I don’t believe that predestined in scripture has to do with God choosing some and not others FOR salvation. It’s not about me’s and you’s. Predestined is that both jew and gentile were chosen the same way to receive salvation (not for) through Christ. It’s dealing with jew and gentile. Jews were the elect, not the church. First it was for the jew, they rejected, then the gentile. This is how I believe predestined is revealed in scripture. It was God’s plan revealed in scripture, not that some were appointed salvation and others weren’t. Elect is a reference to Israel. They were the elect. If we look at scripture in this light it makes sense. We think we’re the elect. Elect was Israel. God’s predestined plan was to save the jew the same way as the gentile, by faith. Bob George has a good podcast on predestination and Doug Hamp does as well. I’m not sure where Doug is coming from on other issues, I haven’t looked at his other studies, but I believe he is correct on this.
Jasen,
Predestination and election only concern believers. The word is προορίζω. See Romans 8.29-30; 1 Corinthians 2.7; Ephesians 1.5, 11.
Jasen, this is also the very same way I recently came to understand predestination. ie. “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,” Eph 1:13
YOU also meaning Not you individual but you as gentiles are now included.
I am not very articulate and I know my thoughts usually come in bursts. With this in mind please allow my ramblings below and please correct me. Thank you
God individually created angels for some reason. (As per mankind only Adam was created. All humans since Adam are not created but born from a single source requiring a single Savior)
#1 angel was Lucifer possessing free will. Lucifer fell. (There are no substitutional sacrifices for angels that we know of)
Lucifer was judged and condemned but Lucifer appealed. Lucifer is not omniscient.
Lucifer questioned God’s Divine attributes ie: love, mercy, justice, etc.
God answering Lucifer’s appeal set up a program to illustrate his attributes and show his love, fairness, justice, etc.
The program involves man kind….made a little lower than angels.
If mankind in his lower state can succeed while combating Lucifer (evil) then God’s resolution of the Angelic conflict is made evident and Lucifer loses his appeal.
Israel and the Church play important roles both in time and beyond. One earthly and one heavenly.
Doctrine, please correct me. Thank you for your time and study. Your work and investments have made our study so much easier.
Joe,
Your analysis is sound.
There is a dear brother on Facebook who is a missionary to India. But, he also teaches this doctrine of predestination minus foreknowledge. Though not in the category of a cardinal doctrine (thus not heresy) it is certainly false teaching and taints this man’s ministry. My concern is for those who are young in the Lord and receive a false concept of the character and nature of God.
We have provided a link to this site so that a few of those who responded to his posts have an alternative that is accurate.
Thank you for your true and balanced teaching!
Laird,
Thank you. God wishes all to be saved (1 Timothy 2.4). He has made a way for all. The idea God has predetermined some to righteousness and some to condemnation is not a Biblical teaching.
If God does not predestine people then why does Romans 9 not only clearly state that God’s choice determines salvation, but also then spend the rest of the chapter dealing with this very objection that God can’t find fault in someone He predestined?
Romans 9 repeats that God is the one who hardened Pharaoh’s heart. The context leaves no room for doubt – the Apostle is defending the doctrine of predestination in that entire chapter. He even answers the objection that this is unjust by saying that God has always reserved the right to do as He pleases.
hoodaticus,
If you read the article, you would have discovered the Scriptures state God predestines believers and foreknowledge governs predestination. The Scriptures do not support double-predestination. If you read the account of Pharaoh, the Scripture states Pharoah hardened his heart and that God hardened his heart. Both divine and free will operated. This is the case Paul made in Romans 1 when he stated “God gave them up.” God did this because they made the choice to reject him. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are false.
An interesting passage re: predestination/foreknowledge is 1 Samuel 23:1-13.
Here we have David wondering if he should go to Keilah and fight the Philistines. God told David to go and defeat them and he did. Keilah was a city with two gates. Saul found out that David was inside the walls of Keilah and headed to Keilah for a siege. David learned of Saul’s plans and asked God if the rulers of Keilah would deliver him (David) into Saul’s hands and God said, ‘yes’ so David and his men left the city. Saul learned of David’s departure and gave up on his plans. …..think about it…..God told David what was foreknown but not predestined. God knew what would happen if David stayed in town…but it didn’t happen……”That which never happens can be foreknown by God, but it is not predestined, since it never happened.”…”Since foreknowledge doesn’t require predestination, foreknown events that happen may or many not have been predestined,”..Heiser, The Unseen Realm, page 65
Hi Don, did Jesus die only for the elect or believer? Thanks
Elvie,
Please read my article, For Whom Did Christ Die?
Will we still have free will in the next life?
Roger,
Love is meaningless apart from free will. God gave it us to respond to Him.
What I mean is, if we still have free will in heaven isn’t there always a possibility of rebelling against God?
Roger,
Theoretically, yes. But the Scriptures provide no evidence for this. The Scriptures indicate choices of both sides (believers and unbelievers) are established. There will be no rebellion of the redeemed who have chosen God and no repentance of those who have rejected God.
I think we need to see a difference between Election and Salvation. Election is the word ‘piercing the scroll’ and it refers to a king who selects from among his children those that he will call to high office in his kingdom and he pierces a scroll of their names to indicate those that he chooses. (This practise still occurs today as the Queen selects her Sheriffs in England.) It has nothing to do with their birth.
Stephen,
The word “elect” is ἐκλεκτός and means “chosen” or “selected.” The root words are ἐκ (out) λέγω (say). It has nothing to do with England. Foreknowledge governs election.
Another point, The word ‘Pre-destination’ was added with pressure from the Presbyterians to the JKV to indicate a sort of Calvinistic fatalism. Wycliffe had the proper word ‘Pre-ordination’. We all know that ordination has to do with the service of the King and nothing to do with their birth.
Stephen,
The word “predestine” is from Προορίζω. It means to decide beforehand. It is a Biblical word and doesn’t have anything to do with Presbyterians or Calvinism.
Don, great article i allways thought that God hardened Pharoahs heart, by forceing Pharoah, an idolotor to deal with Him(God). Free will comes in to play so Pharoh in effect is to blame ?
Courtney,
God does not force. He created us with free will. Without it, love is meaningless. God wants His creation to love Him for who He is. Exodus reads Pharoah hardened his heart and God hardened his heart. The latter was the result of the former. Read Romans 1. When men reject God that rejection forms a scar tissue, a hardening of the soul to respond to God. As Pharaoh continued to fail to respond to God, he became hardened. As such, God hardened his heart.
The reason why people argue about this matter because they forgot the. Very important doctrine salvation is not a choice its a change of heart if mans have to choose without changing His heart ofcourse they will reject the gospel so it is not the matter of choice the reason why people hates election because they want to have a part in their salvation scripture is very direct in saying that its only by grace not in our own work or decission to election =grace its all about God ot us infact if God doesnt save He will still be a just God worthy of everything..
Dexter,
This is an oversimplification. Real issues exist here. Some teach that man essentially has no will and that God has chosen some for salvation and damned others. That is what they mean by predestination. The Scriptures present both. God has elected and predestined (believers only) but men have wills to accept or reject God. God has provided salvation for all but salvation is a choice. The whole point of God’s plan is to have creatures who love and accept Him of their own free will. Choice, free will, is the center of gravity of God’s plan.
Reading through these replies is interesting. The point of the “man has no will” people’s (Calvinists…?) is quickly refuted in
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
In fact Romans 7 is excellent to explain why we need salvation.
The Lord himself had to save us because of this very thing, because in the flesh we can do no good thing.
One thing that is awesome in the predestination doctrine is it is eternal. :) For believers this is stunningly wonderful.
Hi, Don!
This seems to be the best topic under which to ask my question:
2 Cor. 4:4 – Is it at all possible that we’ve missed the boat entirely with this verse? Could it instead be saying that God IN this age has blinded some? We can find much support for this: Isa. 6:9-10 and Rom. 11:7, to name the most obvious.
Based on Eph. 2:2, it’s easy to name the “god” of this Corinthian passage as the serpent. However, the Greek word “theos” is never translated as Satan or the serpent, as far as I can see. I will admit that I did not do an exhaustive study, as the word “theos” shows up 1,343 times in the Masoretic.
Also, the Greek word for “world” is translated as “age” sometimes, which as an aside seems to be a better fit in many passages.
What are your thoughts on this?
Grace Receiver,
In this age, Satan controls the governments of the world. See Matthew 4 and Luke 4. He has the power to blind and deceive. God breaks through this deception through faith. In our day, it is by believing Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). According to what Paul wrote in the verse, blindness is the result of unbelief.
Hi Don, I like the approach of laying out the various types of passages in a clear format as you have done. I have three questions.
My first question is why would a type of passage dealing with the omnipotence of God not be included (see, e.g., Romans 9:21)? I can see how such inclusion would complicate the discussion, but it still seems to be an issue that should be addressed in the topic if a correct conclusion is to be achieved.
Secondly, could you explain how you believe the original Greek in 2 Peter 3.9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 should be interpreted? Specifically, the operative word in these passages is the Greek word, “pantav”. I am NOT a Greek scholar, so I stumble along with other resources such as the study tools at http://www.studylight.org, which discuss the usage of this word in other passages as follows:
… “the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts– some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …
So, the operative word in these two passages typically means a subset of the human race. Clearly, if this is a valid interpretation, then the two remaining passages could properly be interpreted to mean that God is not willing that [a certain subset of man] should perish, and that [the subset of man] should be saved. As such, they would seem to support a different conclusion than the one you presented.
Thirdly, in the event the foregoing is a valid interpretation, do you have any other support for your proposition that God is not willing that any human should perish? I ask this because the Matthew passage does not appear to support the argument.
For example, in Matthew 18 the context is the Kingdom. The preceding passages address entry into the Kingdom (Matthew 18:1-6) and stumbling blocks (7-11). The immediately following passage deals with correction of a “brother” (15-17) in the Kingdom. Thus, the passage appears to be solely directed to a teaching regarding those in the Kingdom. This is particularly true since I believe you have mentioned previously that “sheep” is a term that is always used in connection with Israel. Accordingly, Matthew 18:12-14 appears to be discussing a citizen of the Kingdom who has gone astray, while saying nothing regarding people who are not in the Kingdom.
Thank you for your time and insight!
Jim,
1. I don’t understand the question.
2. The word πᾶς has an individual and collective sense. Context determines how it is rendered.
3. See my article, For Whom Did Christ Die? Since He died for all, it is logical He wishes all to be saved.
Don, this is the best clarification of this subject I have ever read. I am going to print it and study it over and over. Reason being, I run into lot’s of people who think you have to be chosen to saved, I never could agree with the Calvinist on this. Again, a very fine job my brother!
John,
Thank you. I’m glad it helped clarify the subject.
Dear Doctrine:
Please explain John 6:44. Is everyone called?
Joe,
I cover this in the article in the sections All Enlightened and Divine Will and Human Will.
Don, I attend a Southern Baptist church in Arkansas. In our bible studies and sermons, the four gospels, and old testament scriptures are the main focus with only occasional references from Paul’s epistles. I have listened to Les Feldick’s studies; studied your many articles; and reviewed many of Cornelius Stams sermons. I agree that Paul’s doctrines are for Christians today and that the gospel revealed to Paul is the only gospel applicable to us through faith that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and arose again on the third day so that we may have eternal life. But all the Baptist churches I have attended believe this statement and also add ask Christ to come into your heart; surrender your life to Christ; etc. etc. Don, I know of no churches in my area that teach mid-acts dispensation or that focus on Pauline doctrine. I love my church and the people that attend but they have no idea that we are mixing two different gospels. I am praying for a resolution.
Ron,
It’s a sad situation and has been going on for over 1,900 years. The absolute test of fellowship is the gospel. The other matters regard obedience and faithfulness to God and the Scriptures. There is vast ignorance on Paul’s apostleship and the difference in God’s programs to Israel and the Church. It is all mixed together. Paul is simply seen as an add-on rather than the apostle who began the Church. One can only point out the error and pray for a positive response. Tragically, many ministers feel if they teach what the Scriptures say, they would betray their denominational beliefs, fear a backlash from other ministers or denominational officials, or face congregational opposition. The question is whom do they serve: God or man? They will answer to the Lord for this.
Doctrine-
re: Great Commission
Are we called to restore the lost like the parable of 99 plus 1? Do we try to witness to the lost? Is there an urgency to reach the lost? Or is it as “ambassadors for Christ”, our light shines through our fruit, and this is our witness? Or is it both? Newbie, trying to learn. thank you in advance
Robert,
The Church’s “great commission” is in 2 Corinthians 5 and as such, we are to serve as ambassadors of Christ by both word and deed.
Early in my studies of the Scriptures, I also concluded the same view that God inhabits eternity outside of time viewing past, present and future as being now to Him as an explanation for the conditional predestination indicated in Romans 8:29,30 . Later I added an additional thought to that concept of conditional predestination based on God’s foreknowledge due to God being outside of time. That additional thought is as follows: God foreknows those He can convince/persuade to make a free will decision to repent and accept His call/drawing, instructions/teachings, commands, promises and gifts (such as, accepting/believing Christ as their savior for the forgiveness of their sins.).
God has granted to all of mankind (Jn 3:15-16; Jn 12:32; Rom 8:32; 1 Tim 1:15; Titus 3:4) to be drawn to Christ/God by the convicting/convincing/persuading work of the Word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit both taking advantage of man’s God given conscience and reasoning capability of seeing the evidence of a creator in creation (Rom. 1:18-20; Rom. 10:8-17; 1Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12; Luke 8:21; Jn. 15:26, 16:13; 2 Thess. 2:13).
Also, early in my studies to Scriptures, I could see that the majority of the Bible and the communication style of God in the Bible reeks with an obvious implication of the inherent ability of man to accept/believe or reject what is being communicated to them from God.
This may not be completely on point but it’s fascinating to me. It concerns predestination/foreknowledge. In 1 Samuel 23, David is asking God questions as to what will happen if I do this and what will happen if I do that……Think about it….God knows what would have happened if you hadn’t done what you actually did. To me this is foreknowledge but not predestination. Free will exists!!
1 Samuel 23, beginning at vs 9—– When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod.” 10 David said, “Lord, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. 11 Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.”
And the Lord said, “He will.”
12 Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”
And the Lord said, “They will.”
13 So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.
Joe,
That is indeed an interesting scripture! Really puts a kabosh on Calvinism doesn’t it. God is amazing… :)
Romans 10:17 KJV — So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Blessings!
With David and the men at Keilah, God’s foreknowledge was not fulfilled – two times. It seems God’s foreknowledge was applicable to the situation with David inside the gated community, and with Saul in pursuit. Once David left, that particular foreknowledge of God no longer applied. So does God have foreknowledge of all possible options that are legitimate choices? For thought, why didn’t God tell David, “since you and your men are going leave, it does not matter.” I think of this as a chess match, with the pieces spread over the board. What I do this turn will affect my opponents next move. Food for thought.
Good Evening Don,
I am pretty much in agreement with you in this article up to the paragraph of “Solving the Issues”. Then after quoting both Peter and Paul, you conclude that God is timeless (God lives outside of time) and that He sees everything, past, present, and future, as “now”, just before your descriptive diagram. Maybe God is timeless, but I would suggest that God is eternal, or everlasting throughout time. God’s creation/re-creation of the Earth was in six days, and then the next day God rested; He took a day off. God was certainly not outside of time, or timeless at creation. No Scripture that I know of says God is outside of time looking in on us as your diagram suggests, nor do I know of any Scripture that says God moves between the realm of timelessness into and out of time. The God I see reflected in Scripture makes decisions and does things in successive moments (creation, Noah, et al.). When mankind was wicked 10 generations from Adam, God started over with Noah and his family, and got rid of the rest. So I see God as being on the same time-line that I live on; He’s just been there since eternity past. And God makes decisions in successive moments like we humans do. God laughs, He gets angry, He is grieved, He is quenched – the list goes on – then He gets over these things – until the next time, etc.
Having said this – which I believe is based in Scripture – your conclusion and diagram do give an explanation to foreknowledge, predestination, choosing, and election, but you had to decide that God is timeless, or outside of time to make it work. A couple of closing thoughts: Predestination is not whether humans are predestined to Heaven or Hell, but we (believers) are predestined to be conformed to the image of God’s Son. This is perhaps the most difficult topic for me of all the topics that you have written on. I’d appreciate any further thoughts you might have. In Christ,
Rob Klein
Rob,
Thanks. God’s essential nature is eternal, timeless. Time is a property of creation. As such, God can step into and out of time. My first paragraph states predestination is not about heaven and hell. It is, as you state, about our identity and position in Christ.
I thought Einstein had settled all this. Time is a relative phenomenon. It depends on the position of the observer of the event. (man on train vs man at station) . One of the most fascination things I’ve read lately is that time may have mass.
Don,
I just do not see a Scriptural basis for the conclusion that God lives outside of time. And I am quite surprised that you hold that God can/does move into and out of time. I simply can not back this conclusion with Scripture. I have looked at and read on this issue long ago, and I just am not there. Maybe some day I will see it differently. However, the conclusions that you draw in your article do give an explanation that to some may seem reasonable and conclusive. Thanks,
Rob Klein
Rob,
Time is a property of creation. The Scriptures state God inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57.15). Genesis 1.1 states, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” That was the beginning of time. God’s domain is eternity but He moves in time as it is part of creation.
–Does God use some form of a divine counsel and brainstorm the means through which he achieves His foreknown ends before He proceeds toward those ends?
1Ki 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
1Ki 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’
1Ki 22:22 The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’
1Ki 22:23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”
Thanks in advance,
Joe,
God involves the divine counsel to bring about His plans. But His foreknowledge is His alone. It sees past, present, and future. The angelic host do not know the future other than what God has revealed. And we know things they do not. For example, Satan does not know he will be removed from heaven or when this will occur. We do.
It’s interesting that satan does not know he will be cast out of heaven despite the fact that people talk about it amongst themselves or in church or bible study. Cant the devil hear our conversations?
Craig,
I am convinced God keeps certain things that we know hidden from Satan and the angelic host. If governments can encrypt information I’m sure God can certainly encrypt conversations, sermons, Bible studies, Bible passages, and anything that foretells the future so Satan cannot understand them.
This takes me to another level of understanding. I’ve asked why Satan doesn’t ‘read’ the bible and figure out what’s going to happen to him. Your explanation settles this. It’s difficult to get the arms of my left brain and right brain to wrap around this but it makes sense. There are instances of things being hidden. thanks
This is my own contribution. John 3: 16 – ‘For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life’. The second part of the verse (that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life) talks about predestination. To my understanding, it is not talking particularly about any human as an individual, rather ALL that would believe in Him are predestined (prepared a place) to have everlasting life. This is not also to rule out the interest of God in individuals who He may choose to use for any service that interests His will.
Revelation 2:16 (Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth) shows that we have a choice to turn to Jesus Christ. So as for many that would receive him are given the power (i.e. predestined) to the called Sons of God.
In all, let us constantly strive to seek God, ask for His mercies because if a man makes Heaven, he has made everything. As for brethren in Nigeria, who have burning passion to teach about the second coming of Jesus/rapture, I would be glad be glad to know you. I think I am particularly burdened to share the gospel of the second coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Damiola,
Predestination concerns believers being predestinated to a position and an inheritance (Romans 8.29, Ephesians 1.5, 11). John 3.16 concerns the gospel of the kingdom, believing Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God. No one is saved by believing this today. John 3.16 saying nothing about Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection which is the gospel that saves today (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). The hope of the Church is not Christ’s 2nd coming but His return for the Church, His body (Ephesians 1.22-23; Titus 2.13). The book of Revelation has nothing to do with the Church. It concerns Israel and the nations. The Lord’s 2nd coming concerns them, not the Church. See my article, Understanding the Book of Revelation.
I know you will be so relieved to read this (sarcasm) but I agree with what you written and I think that the Calvinists main problem is with their concept of God & Eternithy vs. Time & Creation. I think your diagram was very clear and the same thing I realized several years ago. The term “foreknowledge” is based on our limited, time-bound understanding. I’v had so many say to me “so you are saying that God peers down the corridors of time to see what a person is going to do and bases His predestination on that?” I then try to explain my concept of God seeing NOW what is happening in the future (or past) to us.
BTW I’v read that the First Great Awakening was partially the results of the loosening of Calvinism’s grip on the minds of the people at that time. False doctrine always causes harm.
Thanks for posting.
Richard,
True. The center of gravity of Calvinism is its view of man’s will. A Biblical view of man’s will crushes Calvinism.
First, I’d like to thank you for all your wonderful, well written, insightful articles.
I’m one of those crazies who has studied literal translations (such as the Concordant), who believes the original Koine Greek and Hebrew text nowhere speaks of hell or eternal punishment. There is much scriptural evidence in the original languages, and I believe our English translations have been tainted by the mistranslations of a couple dozen key words. The mistranslations are intentional because doctrine drives translation rather than doctrine being derived from correct translations.
If Biblical universalism is correct (I certainly believe it is) then both Calvinists AND Arminians are wrong because BOTH believe in eternal punishment, not universal reconciliation. In that case, the argument that belief in God’s sovereignty means that ALL must be saved is of no effect because ALL are in fact saved. Also, predestination by God’s sovereign will is possible if God simply saves ALL just as He saved Paul without violating Paul’s free will.
Biblical universalism negates BOTH Calvinism AND arminianism, but NOT predestination. Paul is pretty clear about “election” and I see no objection to it if ALL are to be ultimately saved. (Although not at the same time and not all in this age prior to death). Believers are resurrected prior to the kingdom age, but “the rest of the dead” will wait until the Great White Throne at the end of the kingdom age.
I’m not interested in being talked out of Biblical Universalism, because I know it is true. That defeats the argument that predestination is not true. Paul clearly teaches predestination by election, and the objections evaporate if universal restoration is true. As with Paul, God Paul can save ALL without violating their free will.
You are an extremely talented writer, and I would love to read the articles you might write if you investigated universal restoration, which I contend is taught by the Bible when properly translated. For example, the word HELL is nowhere to be found in a literal translation. Neither are the words eternity nor “eternal punishment.” The noun aion is consistently mistranslated as eternity, and the adjective aionios is consistently translated as eternal. When those translation make no sense, then the translators use other words such as “age” or “world” for aion. The fact that the plural of aion is used in the original language proves it cannot possibly mean eternity.
I’ve already been kicked out of Calvary Chapel for expressing my views, which I have thoroughly researched.
Naturally, I believe that the only path to the Father is through Jesus, and I do NOT believe there are “many paths.” I contend universal restoration is 100% Biblical in a properly translated Bible. Only a few mistranslated words have distorted Biblical doctrine.
Regards,
Art
Art,
Thank you. The appeal of universalism is deductive, not inductive. The original languages do not support it. Universalism’s deductive foundation is the repugnance of the concept of eternal punishment. On this basis, words are deduced to support it. The same word for eternal life αἰώνιος is used for eternal punishiment. If eternal punishment does not exist, neither does eternal life. Nor is God or His glory eternal. For universalism to work, God must force men and women against their wills to accept Him, love Him, and bring them into heaven. C. S. Lewis wrote The Great Divorce to show this futility. Paul wrote, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Those “in Christ” will be made alive. To be “in Christ” is by trusting God. The reason punishment is eternal is that the vast majority of mankind will never trust God. Their animosity is eternal. Jesus made this clear in Luke 16. Though the rich man was in torment, he expressed no change of mind towards God. God will not force His love and salvation upon anyone. To them He says, “Thy will be done.”
I think your reference to Matthew 25:46 is taken out of context, because that refers to the judgment of the nations called the “sheep and goats” judgment, not to a general judgment of all individuals. Augustine made that argument, so you are in good company. But Augustine did not read Koine Greek, so he did not understand that eonian life is “life for the age,” and does not mean “eternal life.” In addition, αἰώνιος is not consistently translated in modern English Bibles, or in the KJV. It sometimes appears in plural, so it can’t mean eternal. Translators cheat when translating αἰώνιος as eternal would make no sense, such as in “I will be with you until the end of the eternity.” Then, they correctly translate it as “age.”
Just one example is where the translators render “forever and ever” instead of “ages of the ages.” How can you add an “ever” to “forever” anyway? That is nonsense in English even to one who does not read Greek!
I would love see someone of your obvious interpretative talent give serious consideration to the notion that words such as “hell,” “eternal,” and “eternity” do not actually appear in the original language. Because I am not a Greek scholar, I investigated this by using two tools: A Greek Interlinear text (Uncial), and various literal translations such as the Concordant Translation which is available online. I find that Young’s Literal strikes a middle ground. It does not use the words “hell,” “eternal,” and “eternity,” but in other places it is quite orthodox. For example it speaks of the “restoration of all things” where the original text simply says “the restoration of all.”
By the way, I believe that Christian universalism is quite biblical in the original languages. I have not “deduced” it because I think a loving God would not condemn 90% of His created children. Nevertheless, I do believe that it is against the nature of a loving God to punish finite transgressions with infinite punishment. In the Law, punishment was limited, and was proportional to the crime (eye for eye, tooth for tooth).
Furthermore, if Christ’s work on the cross was sufficient to save all, yet did not save all, then how can it be said that the adversary has been defeated? Is a 90% loss a 100% victory?
Regards,
Art
Art,
The word αἰώνιος comes from αἰών which can mean an age as well as eternal but αἰώνιος almost always means eternal. This is not a difficult interpretive task. See https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G166. Vine’s states: Eternal: “describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tts 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT. “The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2Cr 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., ‘for a season,’ and in Phm 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1Ti 6:16, and of His glory, 1Pe 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hbr 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Hbr 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Hbr 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2Pe 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luk 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, Jhn 3:16, concerning whom He said, ‘they shall never perish,’ Jhn 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2Cr 5:1, elsewhere said to be ‘immortal,’ 1Cr 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Mat 25:46; Tts 1:2. “Aionios is also used of the sin that ‘hath never forgiveness,’ Mar 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Hbr 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Mat 18:8; 25:41; Jud 1:7, and which is elsewhere said to be ‘unquenchable,’ Mar 9:43. “The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Th 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.” * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 232, 233.] God has done everything necessary to save all mankind. But most of the human race rejects God’s work. God’s victory is not in all being saved but in having removed the barrier of sin and death between Himself and mankind. It is up to each person to appropriate God’s salvation. How can God have those in rebellion to Him and all He is in His presence? We have to respect man’s will for God does.
There is a problem with using a lexicon or concordance that reflects the bias of translators. Of course Strong’s is going to give “eternity” as one of the meanings of αἰών because it is merely reflecting what the KJV translators did. The question is what the word actually meant to the author and his readers. This topic is thoroughly treated in many scholarly books, and I cannot reproduce those arguments here. Those books also explain how an adjective derives its meaning from the noun it modifies, so αἰώνιος can mean “eternal” when applied to God, and a limited duration in other cases.
It is completely circular reasoning to offer a specific translation as proof that translation is correct. That’s what you are doing by citing Strong’s as proof that the KJV translation is correct. How do you explain that ALL literal translations, even Young’s which is otherwise quite orthodox, do not translate the original text to include the words “eternal,” “eternity,” “eternal punishment,” and “hell?”
If the only Bible you had ever read was the Concordant Literal Translation, you would have no concept of a place called hell or of eternal punishment. It is a hard pill to swallow that the Authorized Version (and all translations since) were tainted by existing doctrine rather than true scholarship.
The scholarly works on this subject give many quotes from Ante-Nicene church fathers (who read Greek) showing that Universal Reconciliation was the majority view until the time of Augustine. Augustine read only Jerome’s Latin Vulgate. He did not read Greek, an is on record in writing as hating the language. Yet even Augustine in his writings did not condemn the universal reconciliation view as heretical.
Every doctrine in Christianity must live with certain “proof texts” that argue against it. This is the bane of all theology and hermeneutics. I am convinced that many of these seeming contradictions evaporate when a correct translation is read. Even then, we have the problem that not all agree on the source manuscripts. For example, the KJV and NKJV use the “Majority Text” while all modern translations favor the Nestle Aland. There is no doubt in my mind that the majority of people who swear by the Bible have never asked the question, “which Bible?” We all know KJV-only fanatics. We also know that the NIV was revised to add “inclusive” language, and them revised again in reaction to the complaints.
I found that using literal translations in preference to any modern English translation cleared up many seeming contradictions for me. I do not trust translators for whom doctrine takes precedence over true scholarship. It would be wonderful if I could read Koine Greek and Hebrew, but I can’t. So I read literal translations and Greek Interlinear texts which are a sort of “hyper literal” translation. These latter are difficult to use, so I only refer to them when I’m in doubt about the meaning of a particular verse.
We don’t have he original manuscripts, and we are not fluent in the original languages. But most would be shocked to realize the liberties that translators take. The KJV translators had to sign a document promising to that their translation would adhere to “orthodoxy.
I can’t summarize years of research in a single email, but universal reconciliation does not let any wicked person “off the hook.” There is judgment and there is punishment, but there is no eternal punishment in the original texts.
Art
Art,
I sent the link not because of Strongs but so you could read the verses about how αἰώνιος is used. I included Vine as he provides a summary of the evidence. The way one understands the meaning of a word is to read how it is used. The evidence is wholly in favor that αἰώνιος means “eternal.” I place little faith in the views of the Ante-Nicene fathers. They got more things wrong than right. Their value is historical, not doctrinal. I have no desire to continue to argue as it appears no amount of evidence will affect your view. You have become convinced God is going to save everyone whether they want God or not. Universalism is a corollary of the LIE—“you shall not surely die!” If there was a scintilla of evidence against eternal punishment I would happily leap aboard. But there isn’t. The data are wholly against it. So is logic. God cannot, His character forbids, saving those who refuse Him since salvation is a free-will choice. God cannot resolve the angelic conflict and the problem of evil apart from free will. God gives a person who lives a normal lifespan is awake over 1.4 billion seconds. That means a person has over 1.4 billion chances to trust God since it only takes a second (less than that actually) to do so. I encourage you to believe Christ. He was the One who warned the most about eternal punishment and He has the keys of hell and death.
Don, you’ve helped much in my relaxing some about the issue of predestination. Thank you. The calvinists I know and others who know the Scriptures tell me that foreknowledge of God is NOT simply God knowing ahead of time therefore He does something, rather that His foreknowledge means a ‘knowing’ of that group of people ie. the elect in question. Not seeing what’s ahead but intimate or special knowledge of these ones. Thoughts?
John,
Calvinists largely disregard the many passages that speak of man’s freewill. God predestines, elects, etc. on the basis of the believer’s freewill. God “sees” the choice a person will make when confronted with the gospel. Foreknowledge governs predestination. The word “foreknowledge” simply means to know beforehand. It does not mean knowing the elect or some kind of special knowledge. Such an interpretation simple reads into to word what they have already determine. It is eisegesis.
I learnt about predestination a little over a week ago and it has disturbed me ever since. I felt like a fraud when talking about God’s love and when praying for someone else. If salvation is predestined, then God’s love, Christ’s sacrifice, praying for others’ salvation etc have no meaning. Predestination robs the hope that is there in Christ.
I have since continued my search for a more acceptable school of thought on predestination since even Augustinianism accepts that some people are saved and others passed over because God is sovereign and His will cannot be shaken by your acts. If God has already selected who He will save, what is the point in preaching the Gospel to the unbelievers? Then I have no hope of praying for my family’s salvation because I am the only believer in my family and whether I am one of the ‘elect’ is a suspect too.
Everywhere I turned, I got the confirmation, with some variations, that predestination means God has already decided who He will save and there is not much anyone can do to change His decision. I was disturbed by this ‘favouritism’. This is autocratic. Not the loving God I have come to believe in all these years.
Yours is the ONLY article that states differently. It makes sense to my mind. It restores hope.
However, not to be second guessing what you state, but to further understand this doctrine, please tell me why there is no one else who feels this same way about predestination?
Anagha,
The reason is twofold: 1) They do not read Paul and 2) When they do read Paul they misunderstand him. Most of Christendom’s theology is built on what a particular denomination says the Bible says. Error is compounded upon error. They who teach predestination of humanity to heaven or hell do not believe man has a free will. The Bible states otherwise. Without free will there can be no love. God desires mankind to respond to Him in faith and in love. These require free will. These people also teach that God only died for the elect, not for all. Paul taught that Christ died for everyone. See my article, For Whom Did Christ Die? It also help answer why there is so much error and confusion about this subject. The Bible teaches that believers are predestined based upon God’s foreknowledge of their choice. Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to adoption as children, and to obtain an inheritance. The Bible says nothing about anyone being predestined to heaven or to hell. May God bless you as you grow in knowledge and grace.
Would you please explain your statement – The Bible teaches that believers are predestined based upon God’s foreknowledge of their choice.
Anagha,
God knows everything and is not limited by time. He knows the choice a person will make when the person is made aware of God and salvation. Every person is enlightened by God (John 1.9). God predestines, conforms, calls, justifies, and glorifies on the basis is this knowledge (Romans 8.29-30). When God sees a willingness, He opens the heart to believe (Acts 16.14).
Don, what do you think of the Molinism doctrine as advocated by William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga,and others? The basic wikipedia synopsis reads: “… that God does initiate salvation and in His providence foreknows what and when His creatures would choose, in their free choices, to accept or reject His salvation made available to them in Jesus Christ.”
Brian,
This is essential what I wrote that foreknowledge governs predestination. God knows all choices real or hypothetical and bases predestination, election, justification, glorification upon foreknowledge.
Thanks for this really clear explanation. I grew up in a Calvinist family and have always had problems with that view of predestination, the elect, etc., but I wasn’t able to articulate a clear response. This really helped me process my thoughts. This question may be unrelated to this post, but I figured I’d ask just in case. Any thought on where babies go after they die (since babies haven’t had the chance to make a choice one way or the other)? My church has told me that God only allows babies who are part of the elect to die, so they all go to Heaven. That doesn’t make very much sense to me, and I often try to wrap my head around it since I have a baby that I hope I will meet again.
Sandra,
Glad the article was helpful. God is in the process of resolving the angelic conflict and solving the problem of evil. To do that requires free will. God created mankind to demonstrate that mankind will choose God for who He is. Love requires free choice. God does not condemn anyone who cannot choose. Babies cannot choose. Therefore, babies go to heaven. The Scriptures have little to say about this subject but we have David’s testimony (2 Samuel 12.7-23). David said he would see his son. Since David was a believer, his son would have eternal life.
Don, it’s not clear to me from the section “Enlightenment” what John 6:44 mens and how or what is happening here. If God ‘draws’ how and why does He?
John,
The precise mechanics of salvation cannot be know. What we do know is that foreknowledge governs predestination, election, justification, etc. God knows who will respond and draws them to Himself.
Don,
Just stumbled across this website recently and I have enjoyed much of what I have read.
In the above article, you wrote…
“‘Elect’ or ‘Chosen’ (noun) ἐκλεκτός provides more help than the verb. It occurs in the following verses: Matthew 20.16 (KJV), 22.14, 24.22, 24, 31; Mark 13.20, 22, 27; Luke 18.7, 23.35; Romans 8.33, 16.13; Colossians 3.12; 1 Timothy 5.21; 2 Timothy 2.10; Titus 1.1; 1 Peter 1.1-2, 2.4, 6, 9; 2 John 1.1, 13; Revelation 17.14. Most of these verses clearly declare that God has chosen some and that these are synonymous with believers.”
I would generally agree that within most of the examples provided, the writers of the scriptures were speaking to believers, but I believe the intended audience were Jewish believers by in large. What I mean by that is the audience is “elect” because they are Jews, regardless if they believe or not.
For example, consider 2 Timothy 2:10 which you referenced above.
2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV)….
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Whoever the “elect” are, its safe to say that Paul considered them to be lost, so they are not believers. And consider the use of “also” found in the text. The “also” introduces another category of people, other than “the elect”, who can obtain salvation. For example, if we take “the elect” to reference believers, or those “in Christ”, we would have the following…
“Therefore I endure all things for the sake of believers (those in Christ), that they also (along with non-believers) may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
This interpretation doesn’t work for several reasons. First, believers have already obtained salvation in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1, 1 John 5:12). They are saved, not lost. Second, the other category (implied by the “also”) would have to be non-believers. And while non-believers can obtain salvation, it is only obtainable by becoming a believer. In other words, a non-believer will never obtain salvation. Third, Paul’s use of “may” suggest that they “may not”. Whoever the “elect” are, their salvation is not a guarantee.
So, who are the “elect” to whom Paul is referring? Who were the elect, or chosen ones, in the OT?
Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV)….
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
Psalm 105:6 (NKJV)….
O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Jacob, His chosen ones!
Nowhere in all scripture is there such a clear, concise, and unambiguous reference to who God’s elect are. It’s Israel. Does that work within the framework of 2 Timothy 2:10 in both grammar and context?
2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV)….
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David (a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel/Jacob), was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer (at the hand of the Jews), even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect (my fellow Israelites), that they also (along with the Gentiles) may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Is there any other scriptural support for this interpretation? Yes.
Romans 9:1-4a (NKJV)….
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites
Romans 10:1 (NKJV)….
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
Romans 11:13-14 (NKJV)….
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Acts 28:20 (NKJV)….
For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Was Paul willing to be accursed from Christ for the sake of Gentile believers? Nope. Was it for the hope of the body of Christ that Paul was bound with his chains? Nope. Only Israel, his brothers according to the flesh.
Paul could have just as easily said to Timothy…
“Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the circumcision, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
So what can we take from 2 Timothy 2:10?
1. “The elect” are the elect if they obtain salvation or not
2. There is a high probability the “the elect” will not obtain salvation
3. “The elect” are the ones who have imprisoned him and want him dead
The problem with the topic of election, is that two major views (conditional and unconditional) flood the Seminaries, Bible commentaries and internet, while many casual Bible readers might not know that there is a third, and more viable, alternative. When it comes to the subject of elect/election, we need to look for continuity throughout the Holy Scriptures, from beginning to end. Who was God’s elect in the OT? Who were the elect during Paul’s ministry? Who did Christ refer to as the elect during the tribulation days? God swore He would never forsake His chosen people (1 Samuel 12:22, Romans 11:2).
Blessings.
Philip,
Words have meaning in context but the overall sense of ἐκλεκτός denotes anyone who is a believer. God’s foreknowledge governs election and free will is the sine qua non of salvation. Without free will man is an automaton, a robot. God’s whole plan is to demonstrate that his creatures choose Him for who He is. Without free will, love is impossible.
Don,
Thanks for your response. Its appreciated.
If we look carefully at foreknowledge, we will notice that foreknowledge relates to the Jews (Amos 3:2, Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2, 1 Peter 1:2).
God declared who His elect were/are (Isaiah 45:4, Isaiah 65:9, Isaiah 65:22, 1 Chronicles 16:13, Psalm 105:6, Psalm 105:43, Psalm 106:5). Nowhere in scripture does He tell us He un-elect the people of Israel. The apostle Paul declares this in the strongest language (Romans 9:4-5, Romans 11:2). They have been, are, and will always be the chosen people of God, His elect.
The problem, as I see it, is we have allowed our Calvinist brothers define what “elect/election” means. Our Arminian brothers, in a desperate attempt to rebuke Calvinism, came up with their own (rather lame) definition of it. Neither fits the entirety of scripture.
Don’t allow them to “blur” election with salvation. That’s the point. 2 Timothy 2:10 clearly points to Paul’s Jewish brothers, his fellow Israelites, as being God’s elect. Yet, Paul was not certain if they would “obtain salvation”, but was willing to suffer, at their very hands, in the hopes that they may. The Gentiles are the non-elect. Always have been. They were in the OT and today. Yet we know folks like Abel, Enoch, and Noah were saved and yet God never referred to them as “the elect”. That title, or distinction, was reserved only for the people of Israel. Even Christ, the Elect One, is an Israelite/Jew.
Election has nothing to do with salvation or free will. That is an Augustinian notion that has been passed down for centuries and has infected many of our schools and seminaries. Throw the baby out with the bath water.
Election has nothing to do with Salvation.
Look at some of your own commentary that I have enjoyed. Look at your comments regarding the books of Peter and to whom he was writing. Look at your comments regarding “the Kingdom of God”, “the Great Commission” and “Priests in the Church?” You clearly see the different roles God gave to Peter and the Jews, and Paul towards the Gentiles. You’ve got some good stuff there. Most folks aren’t even this far along. Just connect the dots, brother.
I know and understand Romans 8:28-34 can be confusing, because we see some application for us. But Paul is addressing his fellow Israelites in the audience. He has been since Romans 2:17. He is addressing those from the physical lineage of Abraham (Romans 4:1) and those who know the Law (Romans 7:1). That excludes the Gentiles. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul continues that even though most of the nation of Israel has rejected Him, they are still the chosen people. God will be faithful to Israel even though Israel wasn’t faithful to Him. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:29).
Israel is His elect, His chosen ones. The church is His body. There’s the distinction.
I look forward to discussing this more with you, if you are willing. Otherwise, I do enjoy some of your stuff posted here. Thought provoking and thinking outside of the box. We need more of that.
Blessings.
Philip,
A valid case cannot be made that God’s election and calling referred only to Jews in Paul. For Peter or John one can make such a case. I recommend doing a word study on Paul’s use of κλῆσις, κλητός, καλέω, ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλέγομαι. Paul used these words to refer to believers—Jew or Gentile. His statements in Romans 8 refer not only to Jews but to all who are in Christ. Romans 9-11 is an excursus, a lengthy example, of God’s predestination and calling of Jews to make the point of God’s predestination and calling of believers (Romans 8.28-30), particularly those who had believed his gospel.
Don,
Happy New Year, brother!
“A valid case cannot be made that God’s election and calling referred only to Jews in Paul.”
Not sure what I said that implied that. The children of Jacob/Israel are the elect of God. Period. If someone is a physical descendant of Abraham, he or she is elect.
Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV)…
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
God elected the children of Israel and He told us why (and it had nothing to do with faith).
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 (NKJV)…
The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Roman 11:28 (NKJV)….
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
That believing remnant of Israel weren’t beloved because of their faith, but rather from being the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV)….
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect (Israelites/Jews), that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It was for the sake of Paul’s fellow Israelites (in this case, unbelieving and still lost Israelites) that he was willing to endure all things and Paul called them “the elect”.
If we are going to say that believers are now the elect of God, we are transferring a title that God gave to Israel to the church. And that, in my opinion, is flirting with replacement theology.
Philip,
Happy New Year to you also. Israel was the elect of God but not the only elect of God. Did you study κλῆσις, κλητός, καλέω, ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλέγομαι in Paul? If you did, you will have found Paul used these words to refer to believers of his gospel, not just Israel. That is not replacement theology. Interpreting “elect” in 2 Timothy 2.10 to refer only Israel cannot be sustained in light of how Paul used these words elsewhere. Also, it is highly doubtful Paul meant Israel in this verse given his attitude towards his nation after Acts 28.
Don,
You said… “Israel was the elect of God but not the only elect of God.”
If you are suggesting there was another “elect” group in the OT, I will need to see that in scripture.
I asked a good friend (on another blog) to provide his analysis of 2 Timothy 2:10 and this is what he provided. The below are his words, not mine.
“2Tim 2:10 – διὰ τοῦτο πάντα ὑπομένω διὰ τοὺς ἐκλεκτούς ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ σωτηρίας τύχωσιν τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ μετὰ δόξης αἰωνίου
My literal translation – ‘on account of this, these [things] I am enduring on account of the elect [ones] in order that even to/for/with/by them salvation/deliverance they should obtain/experience, the [kind that is] in Jesus, with everlasting glory.’
The και – meaning ‘even’, has to do with Paul’s introducing another category of people, besides the Gentiles to whom he is an apostle, and whom he is wanting to see saved. This other category he also wants to see saved and is willing to keep enduring all things so that might happen.
That other category is ‘elect ones’, and so Phillip has context and other passages on his side pointing to ‘elect ones’ here meaning Jews who are not yet saved, but on account of whom (their forcing Paul’s arrest and trial by Rome) he is enduring his current imprisonment.”
And then reiterated…
“The context leans towards identifying the ‘elect’ as the same ones ‘on account of which’ he is willing to endure suffering, that they also (the ones causing the suffering) ‘may obtain’ salvation… but not certain they will.”
Don, based on that careful exegesis we have the following….
1. “The elect” are the elect if they obtain salvation or not
2. There is a high probability the “the elect” will not obtain salvation
3. The elect are the ones who have imprisoned him and want him dead
This renders both the Calvinistic and Arminian interpretations as laughable. The elect found in 2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV) clearly points to the people of Israel, Paul’s kinsmen according to the flesh. We have context, grammar, and other scriptural support. Everything needed to provide a sound exegesis. The Calvinist and Arminian interpretation have nothing. Just a desperate theory. Again, look how easy this flows…
2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV)….
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David (a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Jacob/Israel), was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer (at the hands of my fellow Jews), even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the Circumcision, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
And notice how interchangeable the words are….
Acts 28:20 (NKJV)….
For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of God’s elect I am bound with this chain.”
Substituting “Israel” with “God’s elect” changes nothing.
Titus 1:1 (NKJV)….
Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness
“The faith of God’s elect”.
Who were entrusted with the word of God? The Jews. Romans 3:2 (NKJV)
To whom belong the covenants? The Jews. Romans 9:4 (NKJV).
Who’s promised Messiah was it? The Jews. Romans 9:5 (NKJV).
From whom is salvation? The Jews. John 4:22 (NKJV)
At whose expense did salvation come to the Gentiles? The Jews. Romans 11:11 (NKJV)
Blessings, brother.
Philip,
I take it from your response you have not studied the words I suggested. What I wrote was Paul referred to more than Jews as elect or called. If you do not study how words are used how can you understand what they mean? If I understand you, you see Israel as elect (true) but no one else. Paul’s writings oppose this.
Don,
You said… “I take it from your response you have not studied the words I suggested.”
Not yet, brother, but I will. However, in your article above, you state that from that very list (κλῆσις, κλητός, καλέω, ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλέγομαι) that it is “ἐκλεκτός” which applies to 2 Timothy 2:10 and that it is associated, or synonymous, with believers.
However, I do believe I have successfully proven that interpretation does not fit the text. Neither in context, nor grammar.
You have to deal with the και, which introduces another category of people, other than the elect, which in context, would have to be the non-elect.
Most folks gloss over the “also/too” portion of the text, which changes everything. There is a video out there of Calvinist John Piper who, not just once, but 3 times, omits the word “also/too” to enforce his interpretation of the text. Shameful. That is something that I don’t wish to do. 2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV).
Next, you said… “If I understand you, you see Israel as elect (true) but no one else.”
Yes, that is my current leaning. But I want to be very clear. Election is not synonymous with salvation. Even though the Jew is elect, he can still be lost, which is Paul’s point in 2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV). Salvation can also be obtained by the Gentile, who is the non-elect, the “other category” Paul eludes to in the same verse. Again, for clarity….
2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV)….
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect (my fellow Israelites), that they (my fellow Israelites) also (along with the non-elect/the Gentiles) may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Paul is telling Timothy that even though his ministry has now turned to the Gentiles (the non-elect), his heart (Romans 10:1 NKJV) and focus (Romans 11:13-14 NKJV) is still for his Jewish brothers (the elect). Salvation is obtainable by all. The elect and the non-elect! Both Jew and Gentile!
What a wonderful Savior!
Philip,
Your view of 2 Timothy 2.10 is possible but not certain. And, it seems you are using your interpretation of this verse to govern other uses of elect. That is unsound methodology. As far as καί is concerned, it has a variety of meanings depending on the context. For example, see https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2532&t=KJV. Your choice is possible, but there are also other possibilities.
Then how do you see…
Colossians 3:12 KJV — Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; ?
Thank you.
Bobbi,
One theory/option (and there are other theories/options).
It could be that at the time of Paul’s writing, the church in Colossae was entirely Jewish. While outlandish as this might seem, Paul’s custom (Acts 17:2 NKJV) was to go into every Jewish synagogue and preach the gospel of grace. His gospel was first to the Jew and only then to the Gentile (Romans 1:16 NKJV). It wouldn’t surprise me at all if some, if not most, of these synagogues during Paul’s ministry were completely Jewish, especially the leadership. There were Jews living in every nation who, by the time of Paul’s ministry, had adopted the local culture and language (Acts 2:5-6 NKJV). So while they were ethnically/racially Jews, they were legally Colossians. So when Paul speaks of both Onesimus (Colossians 4:9) and Epaphras (Colossians 4:12) as being “one of you” it doesn’t have to mean they were Gentiles, but rather citizens of Colossae. And it wasn’t uncommon for Jews to be given Greek names.
There are all kinds of commentary out there about the early churches being mostly Gentile (I disagree. I believe the early churches were predominantly Jewish), but the fact is we don’t know (its speculation). We weren’t there. But Paul was. And he certainly knew if someone was a fellow Jew or not. If anyone knew who “the elect of God” were, it was Paul. And since all they had to go by was the OT (for clarification/validation), it was the people of Israel.
If, indeed, the “elect of God” in Colossians 3:17 (NKJV) is referring to the Jewish believers living in Colossae, then that would harmonize perfectly with the majority of scripture stating that the children of Israel are God’s elect (Isaiah 42:1 NKJV, Isaiah 45:4 NKJV, Isaiah 65:9 NKJV, Isaiah 65:22 NKJV. Matthew 24:22 NKJV, Matthew 24:24 NKJV, Matthew 24:31 NKJV, Mark 13:20 NKJV, Mark 13:22 NKJV, Mark 13:27 NKJV, Luke 18:7 NKJV, Romans 11:28 NKJV, 2 Timothy 2:10 NKJV, Titus 1:1 NKJV, 1 Peter 1:1 NKJV, 1 Peter 1:2 NKJV).
Again, just one theory and I could be wrong. I am trying to work this all out in my head too. I am just looking for consistency and continuity throughout the scriptures. And when it comes to “the elect” we have to start in the OT.
Blessings
Phillip,
I have to chuckle because I’ve had the same experience trying to make the flow of it all be consistant. It’s a hard but rewarding study, not that we will be able to be perfect in it but we long to be!
Just a thought On this. In rightly diving the scriptures the most simple one is realizing the difference in prophecy versus mystery. But then as you get further, one really needs to realize too the difference in the Jew first ministry of Paul versus the full Grace doctrine FOR ALL MEN. It’s all written for the Grace age but part of it is TO THE JEW FIRST .
For example:
Rom.15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
In the Jew first part gentiles are partakers of Israel’s spiritual blessings.
But after that…
Ephesians 3:8 KJV — Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
After Israel is done diminishing (end of Acts) and the salvation of God goes to the gentiles , then we are presented with ALL MEN who believe the gospel partaking in the UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST.
These are not the same. These have not and are not traceable in scripture.
So to me the fullness of the matter is God Loves ALL MEN, and not just Israel. We live in the fullness of God’s grace.
1 Timothy 2:4 KJV — Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 4:10 KJV — For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
I love the Bible… Phew… It’s rich.😊
I do like “chasing the rabbit” and seeing where it leads. That being said, in the grand scheme of things, at this current time, does this mean a lot? Certainly not diminishing or down playing any scripture, but at this time there are neither Jew nor Greek. Either you are a member of the Body, or you are not. Period. If I’m missing something earth shattering do tell. Continued illumination is a good thing!😀
Matt
Matthew,
Yes. The program today is the Church, the body of Christ. It is solely revealed by Paul and all Church doctrine is found in his letters. In the body of Christ, we become “Church” neither Jew or Gentile. That distinction is erased.
Galatians 3:27-29 (NKJV)….
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Concerning salvation there is no distinction. Christ is all in all. However, there are still distinctions between Jew and Gentile and male and female. The Jews are still the natural branches and are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The covenants (including the new covenant) are theirs. The Gentiles only get what they get because of God’s overabundant love of Israel. And, obviously, there are still distinctions between male and female, since females are not allowed prominent positions within the church (1 Timothy 2:12 NKJV, 1 Timothy 3:2 NKJV).
Phillip,
Physical and biological distinctions remain among Jew, Gentile, male, female. But programmatically, in God’s economy, only the Church exists. God’s prophetic and covenant program, His program with Israel, has been set aside. That will continue until God completes the Church. When He does, His prophetic program will return and He will again deal with Israel and Gentiles. God has always had a plan to save Gentiles. Israel was to be the vehicle of that blessing. But when Israel rejected that role, God saved Paul to become proxy Israel.
Phillip and Don,
It seems to me like the passages in Timothy regard spiritual AUTHORITY, and ORDER, in the gatherings of the church. In Paul’s epistles there is a overall teaching of “togetherness”, it is also a heavenly calling but authority seems to be an important element. (The Corinth church had authority troubles)
God has made us “sit together with Christ” where he is. He being the head . Kind of like the ORDER of resurrection, and like the creation order.
This is how government is, and heaven governs the earth…
There are differences whilst we are on earth in “church” worship services but I think it might regard ORDER and AUTHORITY.
By the time you get to Eph. the Jew first program is over. I believe the prison epistles are after the Jew first period. (After Acts). These are the fullness of the Grace Epistles. Have you noticed there is no more mention of Abraham, or the fathers? But we have ONE FATHER…that is God. Eph.4.
God bless you!
Bobbi,
The prison epistles complete Paul’s revelations and his ministry of going to Jew first ends. This is evident from Acts 28, the culmination of Paul’s experience with the Jews. The prison epistles only mention Israel as related to the Church or Paul himself and rarely quote the OT. The time Paul quotes it in Ephesians, he changed it. This is a factor in identifying “the elect” of 2 Timothy 2.10.
Yes! So are you saying the elect in 2 Tim. 2:10 are all believers? I think so imho. Am not a scholar like you brother but in the context of the time of the epistle. Thanks for the conversation with you and Phillip. 😊
Bobbi,
If one does word studies of the verbs and nouns Paul used for “called” and “elect” one finds he used these verbs for those saved, and in particular, for those save through his gospel. Such words describe salvation from the divine perspective. Statements of “belief” describe salvation from the human perspective. God’s election and calling in the OT included Israel and was on the basis of His establishing a covenantal relationship with them. So, we find two different cases. One concerns God’s dealing with a group and the other concerns His dealing with individuals. Both are governed by His foreknowledge. Paul’s example of the olive tree shows that just as He chose Israel to be in the place of blessing, He has now chosen Gentiles to occupy that place. These are group callings or elections. The individual callings or elections when Israel corporately was in the place of blessing were Jews who believed. Today, the individual callings or elections now that Gentiles corporately are in the place of blessing are Gentiles (and Jews) who believe Paul’s gospel, i.e., members of the Church, the body of Christ.
I wonder if it could it be said that Christ is THE Elect in the Grace age and all believers in him. Example…
Tit.1:1¶Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Who would you say is chosen, before the foundation of the world, in this verse? Is it “IN HIM” meaning Christ…?
Eph.1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I wonder if that because of what Peter says too. Who being Christ.
1 Peter 1:20 KJV — Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And Jesus says in John…
John 17:24 KJV — Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Man, it would be so fun if we all knew the Kline Greek and Hebrew .
Thank you Don.
Bobbi,
I am confident believers are “God’s elect” in Titus 1.1 And Ephesians 1.4. That is different from Christ’s role as Redeemer which was planned in eternity past.
Bobbi,
God elected Israel and He tells us why….
Deuteronomy 7:6-8 (NKJV)….
“For you (the children of Israel) are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples
God elected Israel. Israel did not elect God.
If we are saying that election is due to God’s foreknowledge of who would believe in Him then, based on this premise, we can say… “I’m elect, because I elected to believe.”
Who’s in charge of election? God or man?
If you insert “believers” as “the elect” in 2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV) this is what you have….
“Therefore I endure all things for the sake of believers, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
Again, this interpretation doesn’t work for three (3) reasons. First, the “other category” (implied by also/too) suggests non-believers can obtain salvation, which is an impossibility. Only believers can (and will) obtain salvation. A non-believer can only obtain salvation by becoming a believer, which is not “another category”, but one in the same. Second, believers have obtained salvation. Whoever “the elect” are, in 2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV), Paul, in context, considers them to be lost and he is not certain they will be saved. And, finally, “the elect” in 2 Timothy 2:10 are the very ones who have imprisoned him and want him dead. 2 Timothy 2:9 (NKJV)
The word elect/election (as a noun) only appears 19 times in scripture (Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV), Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV), Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV), Isaiah 65:22 (NKJV), Matthew 24:22 (NKJV), Matthew 24:24 (NKJV), Matthew 24:31 (NKJV), Mark 13:20 (NKJV), Mark 13:22 (NKJV), Mark 13:27 (NKJV), Luke 18:7 (NKJV), Romans 8:33 (NKJV), Romans 11:7 (NKJV), Romans 11:28 (NKJV), Colossians 3:12 (NKJV), 2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV), 1 Peter 1:1 (NKJV), 1 Peter 1:2 (NKJV), 1 Peter 5:13 (NKJV)).
Just do a word study on it, in context (allowing for grammar), and look for the common denominator. I lean that all of the above refer to the Jews, regardless if they believed or not.
Blessings.
Phillip,
If you haven’t studied how Paul used the words I mentioned it is not possible to make an accurate statement on this subject. That’s the issue—how Paul used the words. We know that Israel was elected. That began at the Abrahamic covenant. The question is, is Israel the only ones considered elected and called.
Satan was never a member of the heavenly host. Whenever he appeared among them he was coming from somewhere else. The heavenly host stood to the left and right of him and one said one thing and still another said something else. THEN a spirit (Satan) stood among them and said I will do it. See 1 Kings 22.19-23.One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan (ALSO) came among them.The LORD said to Satan (where have you come from?). Satan answered the LORD , “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it. See Job 1.6-7.
John,
Revelation 12 says Satan is in heaven. He and the angels who rebelled with he will not be removed from heaven until the midpoint of the Tribulation. The spirit in 1 Kings 22 is not identified as Satan. As for Job, Satan has access to both heaven and earth. His access to heaven has not yet been cut off.
Don, could 2 Corinthians 6:2 also be used to support free will? Paul declaring that now is the day of salvation seems to fall into this category.
Brian,
Yes. Any command from the Lord supports free will. God does not tell us to do something if we do not have the free will to do it.
I have decided that the best example of free will for me is the passage in 1 Samuel 23. David has a choice to make. God tells him the result of either decision. David makes his decision. I think there is more to this than what lies on the surface. Maybe, no matter what we decide through our free will, the destination is never in doubt. Would David have become the bible personality if he had stayed? I believe yes.
11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.
12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.
13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.
Don, what do you think?
Joe,
God allows man’s free will to operate in His plan. His genius will bring everything together as He wills while the free will of all His creatures, angels and men, operate. God cannot fulfill His plan or prove His case without free will. Without it, His creatures are mere automatons.
Hello, I respectfully disagree with the statement, as I perceive you say, that to be unable to freely choose to sin or obey, “His creatures are mere automatons.”.
I don’t believe that we’ll have free will to sin when we’re in heaven, in fact I believe I’ll be totally free from a corrupt will by not being able to choose to sin for eternity. I’ll certainly not be an “automaton”.
God can’t choose to sin, so that’s one of His many characteristics I’ll be pleased to receive by His determined council.
There’s another English word which is important to consider in relation to soteriology, the word “all”, if you have time to read…
https://rememberthebereans.wordpress.com/2020/03/29/all-men-to-be-saved-1timothy-24-2-peter-39/
Kind regards
Andrew
Andy,
Free will is free will. Free will can choose sin or free will can choose good. God has given free will to all His creatures with God consciousness so all can choose for or against Him. Without such freedom, God cannot solve the problem of evil or resolve the angelic conflict. And without free will there can be no true love. The article you cited is a mess. The passages in view are quite clear: they state God wishes all to be saved and does not wish any to perish. That’s the divine will. Clearly, all are not saved and many perish. The reason is they choose to reject God. Read Matthew 23.37-39. Jesus said “and you would not” and later, “until you say.” That’s choice. At the end of this drama, everything will be resolved, all will have made their choices, and in eternity, no sin will exist. No one will want to sin.
You and I are not likely to agree on this topic.
I’ve only read a little of Calvin and Arminius, who apparently never came to agreement as far as I understand.
I wish you well in you study and growing appreciation of God through Christ Jesus.
Kind regards
Andrew
Andrew,
It seems not. Without free will God cannot solve the problem of evil. It is your position that Adam and Eve had no free will?
Hello,
Yes, I believe they had free will.
I believe that every one after Adam and Eve, are slaves to sin unless God begins a work in us to bring us to repent. Then we become slaves to righteousness. He who has began a good work will complete it to Christ’s day. It is He who brings the dead to life and makes the blind to see, I can’t raise myself from being dead nor can I give sight to my blind eyes. But God can grant or deny repentance to whoever He wills, He is the potter. If God doesn’t grant repentance, then even if one was to rise from the dead, they still won’t believe.
Kind regards
Andrew
Andrew,
So do you think you have free? What do you think Jesus meant regarding free will when he said the words in Matthew 23.37-39? What did Paul mean regarding free will when he replied in Acts 16.31? Did Lucifer and the angels who followed him have free will? Please provide Scriptural evidence in your answer.
Hello Don, I’ve replied a number of times, but it has not been published, is there a problem with the format of submission?
Regards
Andrew
Andrew,
The Scriptures teach free will. You say they do not and wrote, “why didn’t the thief on the cross “choose” salvation of his own “free will” rather than Hell?” Both thieves exercised free will. One thief chose to believe. He asked the Lord to remember him when He entered His kingdom. He believed the gospel of the kingdom. He exercised the same faith as Nathaniel, Peter, and Martha, that Jesus was the Lord, the King. In response to his faith the Lord told him that that day he would be with Him in paradise. The other thief was in exactly the same circumstance and condition but chose not the believe. He would not be with the Lord in paradise. Two thieves, both in exactly the same circumstance. One choose to believe in Christ, the other chose not to. How anyone can reject free will is beyond me. The Scriptures forbid such a view and those who teach this are false teachers.
Hello Don
Labelling me as a false teacher was a little surprising, in what I hoped would be a discussion to consider another’s perspective, although I understand that “He who owns the media makes the rules for his media.”, Acts 18 is example of opportunity to grow in understanding. Hopefully neither you nor I could be referred to as an old and foolish king who knows no longer how to be admonished.
I believe a scripture which guides perspective on where perspective of the source of salvation rests, is 1 Corinthians 15:28 “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”, I believe that to teach other than that, raises man in mans perspective; He must increase, I must decrease.
Kind Regards
Andrew
Andrew,
The Scriptures are solidly against the idea that man does not have free will. It is shocking anyone can think such a thing. That is why I stated that anyone who teaches this is a false teacher. It is as false as teaching that Christ did not die for everyone or that the earth is flat. Acts 18 proves free will. Paul testified to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. They chose not to believe, to reject his message. Because of this choice, Paul turned from them to the Gentiles. This happened in Acts 13 and again in Acts 28. I cannot understand how anyone would come to the conclusion that God has not given mankind free will.
Don, will you now use your “free will” to obey God inerrantly until death?
Andrew,
I’m not sure I understand you question but yes, I will exercise my free will to believe God, obey God, and be controlled by the Holy Spirit. I do not follow what you mean by “inerrantly.” I am not sinless.
Good blog and writings. I was listening to RC Sproul’s comments one night and found this blog/thread.
Why should Christians be overly concerned about the predestination? Looking behind the word itself, doesn’t it really say that HE is in control of everything? HE made time with everything else. Free will? – It always got me into trouble. We are nearing the end of time and heading into the final tribulation as described in the book of truth, promised and now open to us (mostly daniel 11) to instruct us and give us final signs of HIS return to gather HIS elect. There’s hardly any time left to repent and I hope as this “scourge” rages on (Isaiah 26:20) some will repent and be saved. Thanks
Pete,
Sproul was a Calvinist and the whole Calvinist take on predestination is incorrect. Only believers are predestined. And believers are predestined to a position, not a destination such as heaven or hell. Without free will, God cannot solve the problem of evil or resolve the angelic conflict. Without free will, there can be no love. So free will is key in God’s strategic plan. Paul declared members of the Church, the body of Christ, will not experience the Tribulation (Romans 5.9; 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9; 2 Thessalonians 2.3). During the Tribulation, the gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed (Matthew 24.14), not Paul’s gospel of grace (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). Calvinists do not understand these things and this is why Calvinism is full of contradiction and confusion.
“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can’t. If a thing is free to be good it’s also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they’ve got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (…) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
Maybe the problems is our inability to comprehend time plus the limitations of language
I ran across this at another site–
until this century humans didn’t understand that time is a physical property and spiritual beings are not affected. That means we’ve just recently learned that God is not just someone with a lot of time, He’s outside of time altogether and could see every event of your life before you took your first breath.
Once we learned about the nature of time, the argument over whether you chose to be saved or whether God chose you should have ended. Sadly, it hasn’t.
The simple truth is that verses like John 3:16, John 6:40, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, 1 Tim 2:3-4, and 2 Peter 3:9 make it clear that you chose to be saved.
But God already knew you would, He foreknew, and had made plans for it to happen. It’s a lot like a dinner reservation in a fancy restaurant. You want to have dinner on a certain night so you call ahead for a reservation. You’re now predestined to have dinner at that restaurant on that day even though that day hasn’t come yet. When you show up you find that they knew you were coming, but it was your choice to go there.
Knowing that you’d ask to be saved, God made a reservation for you. When you show up you’ll find that God knew you were coming even though it was your choice to go.
Joe,
I have tried to explain this, apparently unsuccessfully. God’s foreknowledge governs predestination. He is outside time and all “time” for him is “now.” I do not understand why this is difficult to comprehend.
Don, you mentioned Job and the angelic conflict. Is there anything else in scripture concerning this? I mentioned the angelic conflict on FB and now I’m being asked for proof.
Craig,
Yes, a fair amount. The account of 1 Kings 22 reveals it as do references to the council of God (Psalm 82). Daniel 10.13 describes it as does Revelation 12.7-9. Satan is presently the god of this world and retains power in heaven with those who rebelled with him. Jesus Christ is the victor in the angelic conflict and all the angels who remain loyal to him and all who believe in him share in His victory.
Don, I was looking for more info on the angelic conflict and usually I like to check the Berean Bible Society website. They have nothing on this so I emailed them. They wrote back saying they have never heard of the angelic conflict and that it must be outside of the Bible. I’m sure much of Christiandom have never heard of it either. Thoughts?
Craig,
I thought this was a basic doctrine. When I first became a Christian many years ago I read Barnhouse’s Invisible War. The verses I provided expand on this. A good bit of work has been done in the last couple decades on the Divine council, e.g., Michael Heiser, etc. If you search Amazon for “angelic conflict” you’ll find a couple books on it.
Hi Don,
Over the last few years, I have enjoyed your labor in getting messages on topics relating to the church, body of Christ. In fact I have purchased all 3 books to have written. I absolutely am enjoying your Study Bible and have recommending it to groups i fellowship with.
I recently watched a video on “What is predestination in the scriptures?” by David Reid a right division teacher. He is with Columbus Bible Church https://www.columbusbiblechurch.org/ He excellent in his way of presenting topics relating to right division. Here is the youtube link to a video on predestination:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2tqKo0xKIE I think you will enjoy his look at what the scripture says what you are predestinated to.
You guys could really benefit from fellowshipping with each other.
“Yet so perfect is His (God’s) omniscience of all choices, possible and actual, that He can devise an almost infinitely complex scenario for mankind in which His sovereign purposes are all worked out perfectly through- and even in spite of – the free choices made by His creatures. This view of things is sometimes called “Middle Knowledge.” – Zane Hodges, “Absolutely Free” , 1989, pg. 209
Brian,
Michael Heiser in his book “The Unseen World” makes two statements on pg. 65–
“That which never happens can be foreknown by God but it is not predestined since it never happened.”
and,
“Since foreknowledge does not require predestination, foreknown events that happen may or may not have been predestined”.
My favorite example in the bible is the series of verses in 1 Sam 23 where David is being hunted by Saul. David learns that Saul has discovered his (David’s) location and he asks God if the towns people will turn him over to Saul. God tells him “Yes” so David leaves with his men. –To me this says God knows what will happen even when it doesn’t happen. God wasn’t guessing what would happen if David stayed in town. This is the part that is difficult for us humans to grasp. Middle knowledge is difficult to comprehend because it involves actual but unknown (to us) outcomes that don’t occur but could have depending on our freewill choice. —probably not articulated well
Joe, that’s interesting. At the risk of getting to far out there, some secular ‘intellectuals’ have devised a multiverse/alternate reality/parallel universe type formula in a vain attempt to try to eliminate God from the equation. We can see it expressed in much of the sci-fi entertainment. Scientists like the late Dr. Stephen Hawkings come to mind. It’s another example of fallen man’s stupid arrogance.
Brian,
The multiverse is another sidestep to creation. Basically, Hawkings and others think whatever exists created itself. They are the modern equivalent of the ancients who worshipped idols. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
Brian,
1. the honest answer for a scientist should be “I don’t know” Agnosticism. example: Robert Jastrow
2. The human mind is limited. How do we reconcile something coming from nothing as Hawking does? Hawking puts his faith in the workings of gravitation…. something no one understands. Such arrogance!!—The collider in Switzerland searching for the God Particle. It’s an admission of ignorance.
3. I believe only things that are created have a beginning. The universe is said, by the brightest of minds, to be 13.4 billion years old. 13.4 billion years ago the entire Universe was a singularity. All matter was compressed into a single element smaller than a quark and time, as we know it, did not exist. Hey, that’s the best they’ve got. All these ‘brightest minds’ work with grant $. They’ve got to come up with something in this secular world of ours. Recently it was one of our so-called brightest minds who claimed, “I am science”, telling us getting vaccinated would prevent us from getting covid. How did that work out? I’m ranting. Sorry.
Hi Don, Does Darby’s translation of Eph. 1:12 bear any significance on the Body of Christ? Was Paul referring to the Messianic Jews prior or Jew/Gentile one in Christ?
“that we should be to [the] praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ.” Eph 1:12 (Darby trans.)
Darby tries to show the uniqueness of this word, προελπίζω (proelpizō) ‘to hope beforehand’. Used only here.
It may refer to those Jews who earnestly looked for Messiah beforehand’. Used only here.
It may refer to those Jews who earnestly looked for Messiah.
Anthony,
Rereading the passage, the “we” and “us” seem to be Paul himself (nosism), and then by extension, those who believed his gospel. Paul included the Ephesians, especially in verse 13 when he changed to the pronoun “you.” I do not think Paul had in mind Jews who looked for the Messiah. The context is the Church.
I’ve often wondered about this habit of Paul using nosism. Nosism, from Latin NOS ‘we’, is (according to Wikipedia) the practice of using the pronoun “we” to refer to oneself when expressing a personal opinion.
It is not always easy to understand who Paul is referring to when he uses the pronoun “we” — for example in Eph 1:3-12. Is he referring to himself, or the church? But your little phrase (then by extension those who believed Paul’s gospel) saves the day.
Hello Don,
Thank you for posting this and trying to explain this difficult doctrine. I think you have done a great job collecting the scriptures that pertain to both sides, but there is an important point that you are adding to help your argument that does not exist in the text.
You are conflating what God desires, with what God wills. These are 2 different actions that you are equating when interpreting 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, and Mathew 18:12-14.
In 2 Peter 3:9, the text clearly states that yes, Our Lord does not “[wish] for any to perish”. Yes, this is referring to all men, both Jews and Gentiles.
In 1 Timothy 2:3-4, once again the text agrees that God our Savior “desires all men to be saved”, to which, once again, I say, Amen.
But when we look at Matthew 18:12-14, we are dealing with sheep, not all men. The sheep are believers, the ones who the Lord is shepherding. So when the text states “it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish”, the little ones are believers, not all men, as you seem to suggest.
Because you are conflating the desire that God has for all people to be saved with the will of God, which in fact saves the sheep, the argument you make for the other side is a false one. The argument should instead be:
God chooses some to be saved.
God desires that all will be saved.
The proposition we are left with is, “God desires all to be saved, but only chooses some.” This proposition is perfectly sound and is something that pulls this question out of us: “Why does God choose only some, when he desires all to be saved?” To answer this we can look to Romans where Paul is dealing with a similar question and emphatically states,
“who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”
Thank you for reading, looking forward to your response.
In Christ,
Nick
Nick,
Thank you. “Sheep,” always, without exception refer to Jews. Sheep are not “believers” but “Jewish believers.” “Sheep” never refers to Gentiles or members of the Church, the body of Christ. Throughout the Scriptures we see the divine side of salvation and the human side, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2.13, “chose you from the beginning for salvation, by the sanctification of the the Spirit and faith in the truth.” God’s foreknowledge governs salvation and free will is paramount.
“When it is said that Jesus Christ did not die for all, you take undue advantage of a fault in men who at once apply this exception to themselves; and this is to favour despair, instead of turning them from it to favour hope.” (Blaise Pascal, ‘Pensees’, 1670. Don, it’s interesting that Pascal, writing in the 17th century, was also very critical of calvinism. I can see from reading ‘Pensees’ (‘Thoughts’ in English) how he later influenced C.S. Lewis and other apologists. Indeed, Lewis has quoted and praised Pascal throughout his books.
Brian,
Yes. Calvinism is more of a philosophical system than a theological system. It forms premises and then tries to fit the Scriptures to it. Limited atonement is a great deceit and its proponents fail to comprehend the extent of Christ’s work and love.
Thank you for your wonderful articles. I agree with you in all you write, but I have a problem understanding the predestination/free will problem. I have met people that had a so strong calling that they felt they HAD to attend an evangelical meeting, where they met Christ. Even if they had no prior Christian upbringing and were unfamiliar with the Gospel. On the other hand I have prayed for my 2 daughters for almost 40 years and they are still atheists. I cannot understand this.
And I have a question that no one ever have been able to give me an answer to: Is it pure luck that I was born into a Christian family in a Christian country and not into a Muslim family in a Muslim country?
God bless you and I will meet you in Heaven or on our way there!
Tor,
Thank you. God is fair and just. I believe every person has opportunities for salvation. John wrote that Christ enlightens every person who comes into the world (John 1.8-9). Paul wrote in Romans 1 that everyone knows God exists and that God’s saving grace has been revealed to all (Titus 2.11). The Holy Spirit is constantly revealing God but people suppress this work. God knows every heart and works at the individual level. Those who do not come to Him do so because they do not want Him. It does not matter where one is born as far as one’s coming to know Christ. God is not limited by culture, religion, geography. If a person desires God, God will bring salvation. God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2.3-4). Since this is true, God does everything to bring men and women to himself without violating free will. Much of this we cannot understand but one day we will.