On Les Feldick today Les said that Acts 15:16-18 passage was from Amos and that it dealt with the ‘fallen down” tabernacle of 70AD. Amos was written in about 760 BC. Why couldn’t the Acts passage be referring to the temple that was destroyed by Babylon in about 586 BC?
Joe, James had reference to the Temple’s fall in 586. James only understood that Gentiles would be blessed through Israel. He did not understand Paul’s ministry and this is clear from what he said to Paul in Acts 21. He had no idea the Temple would be destroyed again by the Romans.
Don – could you please elaborate on how the chart puts forward “Days”; specifically the number of days and years. Why does the chart show the Body of Christ in the year period of 0-2000AD? Would it be unreasonable for the chart to show the Body of Christ in the year period 37-?AD ? And since the chart is depicting a “Devine Week” why would the years of the Body of Christ (Mystery; unrevealed TO the prophets) be included since Paul links it as an unspecific period of time to the “fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25). Thank you for sharing this work.
Van, The dates on the chart are approximate. Since we’re dealing with 1,000 year periods, 0-2,000 seems appropriate. While the secret of the Church was unknown to men until Paul, God knew of it. The “days” cover God’s entire plan. Hosea indicates Israel will be set aside for 2 days. Those years comprise the Church. See my article, When Will the Lord Return?
If I had hung on and read the last 10 pages of your book the last paragraph above would have been avoided. sorry,. I still wonder where the Church will be and what they/we will be doing during the Kingdom.
ps I finished your/my book last night. I appreciate all the work you did. Writing a book like that must be very time consuming. I didn’t notice any misspelled words or awkward phrasing…..maybe a repetition of the word “instead’ on page 216 3rd line…….(mentioned for the benefit of the second edition)
Joe, Thank you. I have found a few misspellings, etc. but had not seen the one on 216. I’ve been trying to make corrections for a new printing but want to wait a bit to try and be sure I catch most of them. Difficult to not make such errors and I really appreciate readers pointing them out.
Greetings Don, Joe in his above comment said, “I still wonder where the Church will be and what they/we will be doing during the Kingdom.” I have that same question. Please shed some light. Blessings, Bob Goyer
Bob, I have the same question. The Scriptures don’t tell us. We are told we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8). Does that mean we will share His rule in the Kingdom (1 Corinthians 6.2) or will our responsibilities be in heaven ruling angels (1 Corinthians 6.3)? Whatever the case, it is a glorious destiny.
Just a couple of random thoughts before I forget them. Maybe you can comment:
The Canaanite woman was an exception to the rule . She was a gentile and off limits to the 12. Do you suppose that this is God making the/an example that there are exceptions to some things. Possibly an unborn child or a youth of only a few years if aborted or dies is covered by Grace even though faith in the gospel of Grace is never acquired?
Second, In Genesis God separates the clean animals from the unclean. Is it possible the biological fact that interbreeding between species results in failure to reproduce fertile offspring was the plan….to keep the clean/unclean from producing hybrids and confusion among people making sacrifices…..maybe in some way related to Genesis 6 ?
Joe, God can make exceptions. God is not going to send anyone to hell without the ability to make a choice. God’s entire plan is based upon choice, free-will. Love requires free-will and is necessary to resolve the angelic conflict. God’s separation of animals was simply to separate Israel from the nations, to keep them different.
Don, the old debate about what happened to all the non-Hebrew or non-Christian pagan people (such as the ancient chinese, koreans, Japanese, Mayans, Hindus, etc.) who never heard of the Mosiac law or Christian gospel still intrigues me. I know that God has revealed Himself through creation as Romans 1:20 states, but it still seems to come short of being exposed to ancient Judaism and then later the Christian gospel. So I wonder if the millions of ancient chinese and other pagan peoples went to hell at death. I apologize for asking this since I know God is merciful and provides a way for any human that desires to obtain salvation. But many anti-Christian secularists like to use this argument for not believing in a ‘cruel’ God. Your thoughts?
Brian, This concerns God’s foreknowledge and love. God will not allow anyone to perish if they are willing to respond to Him. God has given every person an awareness of Himself and it a person wishes to know God, God will provide information to be saved. God’s foreknowledge can see this. These people are in hell, not because God is “cruel,” but because they did rejected the light God gave them.
What scripture teaches that Gods entire plan is based on free choice, free will? What free will choice did Saul(Paul) make when God smacked him down on the road to Damascus? What scripture says love requires free will and is necessary to resolve the angelic conflict? Never even heard of that one. What free will choice did Pharoah have in Gods dealing with him to let Israel go? None! What free will choice did Joseph have in being sold into slavery by his own brothers? None. What choice did his brothers have in doing what they did? None. What choice does any one have to choose Christ or to believe His word? None. No one can come to Me unless the Father draws them. (John 6:44) Quite the opposite is true that NO ONE has free will, except God the Father, the truth is that God does everything according to the council of His own will ( Eph 1:11 ) Man makes his plans, ( makes his choices )but the Lord directs his steps (proverbs 16:9) God is the sovereign God over ALL His creation, even Christ is subject to Him, and He, Christ, does all His Fathers will. ( John 12:49 )
Michael, Your comment makes me think you have not read your Bible. Free will is expressed throughout its pages. Jesus told the Jews, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23.37-39). If you don’t think this is an expression of free will, throw your Bible away. But if you’re right, you can’t. You have no will to do so. In fact, you had no will to write what you wrote.
An uncharacteristically sharp response to Michael’s question! I’m sure he has read his bible. He seems to be agreeing with Luther, whom I claim as my authority when I argue against those who assume we have a free will, which is mostly everyone I meet here in Sweden. J. I. Packer and O. R. Johnston, translators of Luther’s Bondage of the Will, wrote: “It is safe to deduce that for Luther, any evangelist who advocates free will has not only “not yet comprehended any part of the Gospel,” but also that he has not yet preached the Gospel at all; his is a counterfeit gospel.” Seems to be a critical issue both for Luther and doctrine.org. Which Article deals with free will? It would be an interesting read.
Anders, So are you maintaining that no one makes a choice for salvation? Let’s assume you are a believer. You made no decision to believe the gospel? What does Jesus’ statement mean? O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say unto you, You will not see me henceforth, until you will say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23.37-39). Is there a choice here for Christ’s return? What did Paul mean in Hebrews 3.19 when he wrote the Jews that their ancestors could not enter into God’s rest because of unbelief. Did they have no choice about entering the land? Did God tell them to do something they could not do? If the reply seems sharp it is because there are literally thousands of examples of free will in the Bible. If you have missed these, it stands to reason that one has not read the Bible. And yes, I’ve read Luther’s Bondage. The notion of no free will is a deduction, not an inductive argument.
Yes, we disagree on the question of free will. And we’d best leave it at that. You have good reasons for your position I see, from reading your article on predestination, and I have for mine. (partly from reading Melanchthon’s Loci communes.) You’ve read Luther’s Bondage of the Will, which is similar, so you are familiar with their reasons. But I appreciate this site very much, and agree with most everything I read here. Forgive me for only writing when I find something to disagree with.
Anders, Thank you. When I say “free will” I do not mean one can save himself apart from God. It is clear God takes the initiative. Exactly how the divine and human wills cooperate is a mystery. Paul wrote, “the faith is from hearing but the hearing is through the word of God” (Romans 10.17). The word of God is the mechanism under the governance of the Spirit. But one then makes a choice. That is free will. One believes or one rejects. Every person has an equal opportunity for God “wants all to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2.4). God never commands us to do something of which we are incapable.
I asked a friend whether he believes in free will. He responded, “That’s a strange question”. He didn’t seem to think it was worth reflecting over. But I have been lately, and the illustration that makes most sense to me is that, yes, I have a free will! I can get into a canoe anytime I want, and paddle across the Atlantic. I’m free to attempt that anytime I choose. I’m also helped by Sproul’s thought that IF believing in Christ is something that I have willed, then salvation is not by grace, but by works. Refusing Christ is something bad. So, that implies that I’m better than my unsaved friends. To say that God chose me and drew me to Himself because He foresaw that I would believe, doesn’t change that. I’ve still had a part in my salvation.
Anders, I do not see where grace and free will have anything in common. This seems a completely fabricated relationship, making faith a work. If one accepts a gift, does that mean one has earned or merited it? Does it mean that the giver was not gracious? Christ did all the work. We do nothing but accept it and say, “Thank you.”
Dick Leppky
Both the Old and New Testaments are clearly based on free will. Just consider that small word “if” wherever it is used. It began right in the Garden…Did God give our ‘parents’ a choice?
I know this is a little late, but the great thing about Don’s site is that people (like me) go back regularly. Thank You! Grace and Peace.
Just discovered this website, had carefully marked Paul’s. My gospel. In my bible with the intention of getting to the bottom of it ,and other interrelated differences between Paul’s ministry and the12s, as you can imagine I was literally full of joy with the knowledge that my prayers have being answered , this is truly a great place to learn , so thanks to all ……..A quick question if I may ? Are the 6000 yrs of mankind’s fallen condition counted as six days plus the 7th day of Christ’s rule which is another 1000 yr day , being a total of 49,ooo weeks of years…….leading into 50,000 weeks of years ….the great Jubilee …. the time when ….. all things are made new.
James, God bless your answer to prayer. Never have thought about the years as Jubilee. What the new heavens/new earth will be like with respect to time is unknown.
John, The Jewish kingdom saints will certainly live in the New Jerusalem. It is not clear that Grace saints will live there. The Church is wholly absent from the book of Revelation. All we know is that we are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ, have heavenly citizenship, and that we will rule angels. That is all God has revealed concerning the Church’s future.
Thanks so much for this chart. It is so useful in my class at the prison. Doctrine.org is my go to source for my teaching materials. I cannot thank you enough for what you have here online. The inmates enjoy learning so much what I am able to bring to them from this site. I have only one question about the chart. How do you determine the Crucifixion in 30AD? I teach it was in 32AD. I gain that from Sir Robert Anderson’s great book “The Coming prince.” His forensic ability as a detective and later the head of Scotland Yard yields him a fascinating insight into the prophecies of Dan 9. He places the the edict of Artaxerxes given to Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in the Hebrew month of Nisan in the roman calendar year of 445 BC. Given the Hebrew calendar for 483 years in Daniel’s 69 weeks prophecy this would place Jesus presenting Himself to the nation of Israel on what the church commonly refers to as Palm Sunday 173880 days from the edict or 5888 astronomical new moons which would place the crucifixion in 32 AD. Not a major thing here just curious about 30AD. Thanks again I enjoyed both your books very much and learned so much from them both which I am able to share with others.
William, Thank you for your encouraging note. So glad you are finding the site helpful and that you are having a successful teaching ministry at the prison. So glad to hear you have willing hearts to learn and to share God’s love and blessings. The dates on the chart are general. So 30 A.D. is not a hard and fast date. May the Lord continue to bless you.
Shouldn’t the scripture reference under New Heavens and New Earth state Revelation 21.4 instead of Revelation 22.4 (no more tears, death, sorrow, crying, or pain).
Don, while listening to your Madrid you tube presentation, I’m wondering as to Cain’s eternal fate. Did he go to Abraham’s bosom and the later to Heaven, or did he go to hell? I know that God marked him on Earth for his protection. I’m also reminded of the old saying that we’ll probably be surprised at who’s in Heaven and who’s not.
Don, please forgive my elementary question, but when and why did the ‘Hebrews’ become widely called the ‘Jews’? Did it have something to do with the geographical location of settling in Judea? I seem to notice this change sometime around the later half of the Old Testament. After all of my deep philosophical/cosmic questions to you, here’s a relatively simple one. LOL.
Don, I apologize if you’ve addressed this question elsewhere, but what do you think about the gematria method of calculation being used by some people in ascertaining dates or identities when analysing the Hebrew text? On the surface, it doesn’t sound right to me. Should I avoid it?
Hello Don. How are you? How is your health? Question: During the age of law was God a bit unfair to people that observed the whole mosaic giving salvation to them? I don’t think I would have survived keeping the whole law if I were born in that time compared to now in this age of grace.
Second son, No one could keep the Law. God provided the Levitical sacrifices as the mercy aspect of the Law. Faith was required for salvation in the OT just as today. Only it was not faith alone. Works had to accompany it.
Don, I found this on the net and it’s a question I never considered. What about the resurrection of those believers who believed before Abraham? Thoughts?
“The Bible doesn’t give specifics on the resurrection of pre-Abrahamic believers, but they would not live in the New Jerusalem, nor would they participate in the bema seat judgment, both of which are exclusive to the Church. Neither would they appear at the Sheep & goat judgment, which is for tribulation survivors. The Great White Throne judgment is for unbelievers of all ages so those who rejected the Lord, no matter when they were born, will be there (Rev. 20:12-15)”.
Joe, God’s prophetic plan concerns Israel and the nations (Gentiles). I assume believers who died before Abraham will be resurrected with the Jews and go into the kingdom, which will be occupied by Israel and the nations. I see no reason the cannot live in the New Jerusalem. It is earthly, part of God’s prophetic program.
Don, Were things so politically bad during the time of Acts 1-3 that if Christ had been accepted by the Jews by the preaching of Peter the Tribulation would soon have ensued? Many (Preterists) take the destruction of Jerusalem as the Tribulation. I can’t detect the festering of what would bring about the ‘wrath to come’ at the time of the Crucifixion or the next few years that followed. Question #2–what was the reason the Romans destroyed Jerusalem?
Since I’m waxing historical—-Q #3–Can we blame Origen and Augustine for the division we see in Christianity today…. amillennialism vs premillennialism? It appears the earliest (origin) of the Church fathers were Chilliests but soon became allegorical.
Joe, All the apostles thought the Tribulation would occur in their lifetime. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem due to a Jewish revolt that began in 66 A.D. Origen and Augustine share significant blame but when you read the Church fathers, they all had lost the distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and Paul’s gospel, God’s prophetic program and His Church program. This apostasy is revealed by Paul’s statement in 2 Timothy 1.15.
Yes, I’ve learned that the earliest existing document (100AD) ‘Didache’ was supposedly the teaching of the 12 and no mention of Paul. Didn’t take long to drop Paul—–40 yrs?
Don, I’m a little conflicted as I’ve been reading ‘Absolutely Free’ by Zane Hodges. It seems that he, Charles Ryrie, Charles Swindol, etc., grasped only a part of the larger dispensational truth. Although they’re big on God’s grace and highly promote Paul, they also mix his teachings/revelations with John, Peter and the rest which leads to more confusion. For example, they tend to cite John”s Gospel heavily for salvation while ignoring or missing the exact Gospel of grace that the Lord specifically gave to Paul to give to us. Sadly, I wonder as to Hodges, Ryrie’s, etc , eternal fate now because of this. Yes, they taught scriptural truth, but their misguided mixture could also reveal their ultimate error and possible destiny. Your thoughts?
Brian, I do not doubt their salvation. What I do know is none of these men understood Pauline theology. I graduated from DTS. None of my teachers understood Paul. Ryrie had retired when I was there but I had Hodges for a class. My teachers thought Paul was an addition to the Twelve, the Church began at Pentecost, Peter, etc. proclaimed the same gospel as Paul. They did not understood Paul’s secrets were unique to him. This is why you see the mixing with John’s Gospel. DTS has moved further away from Dispensationalism and embraced covenant theology (progressive dispensationalism) to a large degree. They have gone in exactly the wrong direction and are further from sound theology than before. While the professors are highly educated, they have little understanding of theology.
Don, Is this man’s definition correct? This Q&A is off the net.
“I was reading Ezekiel 38 again and ran across the statement of Israel dwelling safely when Gog and Magog war begins. I thought that Israel returned to God during the war and that until they returned to Him they would not dwell safely.
A The Hebrew word translated safely in Ezekiel 38:8 is meant to describe a state of mind rather than actual fact. It can also mean confidently and carelessly. In other words, they’ll think they are safe but subsequent events will prove it was only a perception. Today they don’t even have that.”
Hi, I was so enlightened by your teaching so much so I passed your website doctrine.org to my friends but they said they are unable to find it in website. Please explain.
Don, the popular You Tube preacher, Robert Breaker, teaches that there are eight dispensations. He lists: 1) Edenic 2) Ante-Diluvian 3) Post-Diluvian 4) Patriarchal 5) Legal (The Law) 6) Faith/Ecclesiastical/The Church Age (Grace) 7) The Tribulation 8) The Messianic Millennial Kingdom… Breaker is a devout student of the deceased Peter Ruckman, a KJV only believer, and emphasizes a strict belief in the Blood Atonement of Christ along with promoting the 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Gospel. Yes, the Gospel implies Christ’s shed and sprinkled blood on our behalf, but Breaker also maintains that we must specifically trust in the blood to be saved. Your thoughts?
Brian, Trusting in Christ’s blood means trusting in His death. Leviticus tells us the life of the flesh is in the blood. Thus, blood=life. I do not understand Breaker’s point. Christ also had to shed His blood to fulfill the prophetic types of the shedding of blood of animals.
Don, Robert Breaker can be obtuse sometimes. For example, when I posted the sequence of Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:14 in a comments section for one of his You Tube videos, I’d get rebuked or corrected for not specifically noting Christ’s literal blood with it. Yes, I know that Christ shed and sprinkled His literal blood on our behalf. Absolutely. I trust in the blood atonement. It’s definitely integral to the Gospel. But if all a person with a limited scriptural knowledge knew initially that he or she was a sinner deserving of hell and then believed the Gospel specifically stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1(3)-4, then that should be sufficient for him or her to be saved. And then he or she could build upon this foundation by learning more. It seems that Breaker and his followers demand more initially for an unbeliever to become a regenerate believer. It may be splitting hairs, but I sometimes get frustrated with people adding more details to the basic initial step of salvation. I don’t mean to vent, but even well intentioned true believers can go overboard sometimes with the basics.
Brian, It is best to keep communication of the message of salvation simple. The clearest statement of the gospel which saves is 1 Corinthians 15.1-4, yet too few use it. We first come to the Lord, then learn about the many aspects of the salvation we have.
Don, I dont know why believers make the Gospel harder than it needs to be. My pastor friend says in order to take part in the rapture, just believe Romans 10:13 ” For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” That’s not the whole Gospel that saves.
Craig, Have had that scripture thrown at us too many times to remember. A good example of “cherry picking” scripture. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10.13). However, if you go back two verses you see this: “For the scripture saith” (Rom. 10.11). Paul is quoting Joel 2.32: “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered”. If I’m correct the Jewish prophet Joel did not have revelation from the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ. Paul did and prefaces his quote of Joel with “That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, AND BELIEVE IN THINE HEART THAT GOD HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, thou shalt be saved” (Rom. 10.9). This is also complimented by 1 Cor. 15.1-4. Sometimes it just helps to remove the verse numbers. They weren’t “divinely breathed” (2 Tim. 3.16). Blessings!
Don, what do you think of Clarence Larkin? Robert Breaker and others hold him in high esteem. Although, Breaker criticizes Bullinger for being too extreme with ‘hyper dispensationalism’ but likes Larkin. Actually, I’ve found that there’s not much difference between what Breaker’s mentor, Peter Ruckman, taught and Bullinger’s ‘hyper dispensationalism.’ These random label accusations become comical and somewhat meaningless after a while. Besides Breaker’s/Ruckman’s strict KJV only stance and young Earth creationism belief, there’s also really not much difference between what you teach and what they teach. Both of you teach the 1 Corinthians 15:1(3)-4 Gospel of grace/blood atonement and stress Paul’s unique Ministry, etc.
Brian, Larkin was a gifted artist and excelled in illustrating Acts 2 dispensationalism. Acts 2 dispensationalists believe the Church began at Pentecost, which is impossible. They also fail to understand Paul’s unique apostleship and secrets. Bullinger had his own problems, particularly expressed in his later life, the idea that the Church did not begin until the prison epistles.
Don, I’m about to read C.S. Lewis’s commentary on the Book of Psalm. I know it falls under the Mosaic Law dispensation and records David’s turbulent state of mind. But of course it also has fulfilled Messianic prophecies. Lewis didn’t seem to grasp the correct dispensational divisions. Although he was keen as to the free will aspect. So maybe I shouldn’t waste my time reading his commentary. What are your thoughts as to reading and studying the inaccurate or incomplete analyses of brilliant scholars who may get it right in certain areas and wrong in others?
Hello: I have a question about evangelization of Jews and Muslims.
It seems logical that a deceased Jew (or Muslim) who was not baptized and rejected Christ is not saved. Therefore, all deceased unbelieving Jew since the foot of the cross are not in Heaven. They also won’t be alive to witness the Tribulation or survive it. So are all those deceased unbelieving and anti-Christian Jews doomed to Hell forever?
Oh, and my original question: Should we not therefore be trying to evangelize Jews and Muslims to day? If they die, they are doomed. We cannot assume that Jews won’t die before they have a chance to become Christians at the Tribulation times, right?.
(It sometimes seem some Christians are willing to give immoral and oftentimes hate-filled anti-Christ Jews in our time a free pass, because they are needed for the Tribulation? But that doesn’t account for all the Jewish souls who die before the Tribulation, those unevangelized, that are doomed to Hell for their disbelief in Jesus, active efforts to hurt His church and sheep, and their lack of good works (refusal to honor Torah morality, e.g. 10 Commandments etc. because of the adoption of Talmudism (kabballah/occult))
DJ, All who do not trust in the God of the Bible go to hell. In our present day, all who do not believe Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4) go to hell. Most of the human race falls into this category (Matthew 7.13-14), not just Jews and Muslims.
Don, is Michael Heiser’s ‘The Unseen Realm’ worth reading and studying? I’m aware of his technical expertise when it comes to ancient semitic languages and the Old Testament. I’m just curious if Heiser contradicted any of the scriptural truth that you and a very few others teach. For example, I’ve heard how Heiser promoted ‘The Divine Council’ teaching. And he also refuted the bogus ‘ancient aliens’ theory of Eric von Daniken and other profiteering sensationalists.
Brian, Heiser was a brilliant Hebrew scholar and while others wrote about the Divine Council, Heiser made this his signature subject. He’s worth reading and brings out issues and subjects neglected in Christendom, especially Jesus’ mission to resolve the angelic conflict.
Don, what’s your view of Psalm 82? Dr. Heiser has debated ‘highly educated’ mormons professors over this passage. Apparently, they like to use it to reinforce their heresy. As mormons seem to promote a form of polytheism claiming that Yahweh was once a man, and we/humans can also become gods. A total demonic distortion.
Brian, I have not come to a firm conclusion about this psalm. Heiser and others have made a compelling case for the Divine Council, which I accept. God will to judge the angelic host in rebellion to Him. The Mormon idea that this psalm supports their teaching that Jesus was once a man and men become gods cannot be support by this psalm. No where in the Scriptures are we told this. We are told we will have eternal life, resurrected, immortal bodies capable of flying and going through matter, that we will judge/rule angels, that we will be in God’s presence forever. It should also be noted that the plural noun אֱלֹהִים is used for rulers/judges (cf. Exodus 21.6, 22.8-9; 1 Samuel 2.25).
Don, I asked a post tribulation site this question, are the folks recorded in Rev.7:9-10 the same folks recorded in Rev.15:2-5? His answer was affirmative. I would like to know what you’re understanding to this question is also, please elaborate.
Daniel, The timing of certain scenes in Revelation is difficult. Some things are clearly at the beginning, middle, and end, but other things are not so clear. It appears to me that the Revelation 15 passage cited occurs before the Revelation 7 passage, which seems to be at the end.
Daniel, The gospel of the kingdom will be the message of salvation during the Tribulation (Matthew 24.14). The faith portion of the gospel of the kingdom is to believe who Jesus is, the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 16; John 1, 11; Acts 8, 9). The great test in the Tribulation is who is God. The Beast will claim to be God and prove it through miracles. But he is a liar, a counterfeit, and his power comes from Satan. Those who will be saved will believe that Jesus is the true God, not the Beast.
There is a judgment at the end of the tribulation. Believers will go into the Kingdom. Where do the living unbelievers go because there is also a judgment at the end of the Kingdom for unbelievers who are then cast into hell. I can see the unbelievers at the end of the Trib are alive and at the end of the Kingdom are raised from the dead. Do the unbelievers at the end of the Trib go to hell at that time and a thousand yrs later those unbelievers who died in the OT and are resurrected for the Great White Throne judgment get cast into Hell?
Daniel, The blood of Christ, His death paying the penalty for our sins and His resurrection, have always been the basis of salvation. Before it occurred, it was looked forward to by animal sacrifices. The ascended Christ revealed this to Paul and His death and resurrection became Paul’s gospel. Trusting in His death and resurrection is how one is saved today. While this remains true, the basis of salvation in the Tribulation will be the gospel of the kingdom, believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. This was what Jesus told the Twelve when they asked Him about end times (Matthew 24.14). Israel’s national salvation will be accepting that Jesus is the Messiah (Matthew 23.37-39; Romans 11.26).
The folks in Rev. 7:9-10 will have the robes they receive washed in the blood of the Lamb and will come out of great tribulation. Do you believe it is possible these folks will be redeemed before any supernatural wrath is manifest upon the earth? After all, believing in the blood of the Lamb is the reason Scripture gives us for the redemption of “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and tongues”. I ask this question because Paul taught us, we will not experience wrath, and I believe the great multitude will be those that believe in the gospel Jesus revealed to Paul and will come out of great tribulation.
Daniel, It seems to me that these are Jews and Gentiles who die during the Tribulation due to Beast, those who refused to take his mark, those who believed the gospel of the kingdom.
Rev.7:14 ¶And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Doesn’t the greek say these come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION ? τῆς μεγάλης (the great), τῆς θλίψεως (the tribulation)
These are the same words used in Matt.24 Matthew 24:21 KJV — For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Thus this is the Lord speaking with His own disciples of His own Nation. Isn’t this also known as “the time of Jacob’s trouble? Jeremiah 30:7 KJV — Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Also i don’t see any doctrine of Paul’s in Revelation.
A person today is washed in the blood of Christ because they believe Jesus died for their sins and rose again, this is the gospel Paul recorded for us, do you believe this grace will actually be extended into the great tribulation beginning at the abomination of desolation? That those folks who at first opportunity declined the offer afforded to us today, are offered grace, again? The requirement presented in the final 3 1/2 years is recorded with these words, “worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” This information is preached by the first angel flying in the midst of heaven after the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. The third angel that will fly in the midst of heaven informs us, also with a loud voice, those that take the mark of the Beast will receive torment and have no rest day or night. Two verses later we find these words, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” Tribulation saints will work to receive salvation. Please make us understand, do you personally believe the salvation God offers people today by blood of the Lamb will continue beyond the Rapture?
Daniel, The blood of Christ is what saves people throughout human history. The animal sacrifices looked forward to it, we now look back to it. Whatever the time period, God tells us how to be saved, what to believe. During Jesus’ earthly ministry, it was to believe He was the Messiah, the Son of God. This faith continues in the Tribulation according to what Jesus said in Matthew 24.14.
You stated it is difficult to understand the timing of some things in Revelation, then you stated, you believe the scene recorded about the folks in Revelation 15:2-5 occur before the scene portrayed in Rev. 7:9-10. How is this even possible seeing that we know for sure the people in Rev.15:2-5 are tribulation saints? These people, without a doubt will be the final group redeemed, and they will have to work to receive salvation. But the folks in Rev. 7:9-10, are washed in the blood of the Lamb, “they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.” I know you are capable of logic, why not understand the folks in Rev. 7:9-10 are believers of the gospel Paul recorded, and will stand in front of God’s throne blameless, and receive robes of white? The people portrayed in Rev. 7 are noble, but those in Rev. 15 are tainted. We also know these tainted folks will return to the earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years, while the noble folks are lead ” unto living fountains of waters.” It requires us to apply common sense to Scripture when we study.
Daniel, The people in Revelation 7 cannot be believers of Paul’s gospel because Jesus said so. Believe what He said. Those who believe Paul’s gospel become members of the Church, the body of Christ. But the Church, the body of Christ, is nowhere in Revelation. There is not one word of Church language in the book.
This post is to thank you for the opportunity to express the understanding I have gathered. Other websites I frequent do not hold a candle to the way you have structured yours. I authored a book a decade ago, and Christian Faith Publishing published it for me. I paid thousands of dollars and sold maybe a dozen copies, and most of those dozen copies I purchased. I gave all but one away. The folks I gave them to might love Jesus, but none were Bible students, therefore they understood very little of the understanding I recorded. Although we disagree on many subjects of study, I believe we agree on more subjects than we disagree. I have visited literally dozens of churches in the select areas I have lived in, and I have not found a single church that will preach Paul’s gospel as the gospel for Christians, seriously not one. You have deleted a few of my posts, but for the most part you allow my words to be seen by others. So again, I want to thank you for the opportunity to express my understanding. Thank You!
Daniel, Thank you. I try to give understanding to the Scriptures. To understand them, one must recognize the unique apostleship of Paul, that God gave him revelations, which he called secrets, to him and him alone. These secrets concern the Church, the body of Christ, which is outside of God’s covenant and prophetic program for Israel. The Church was a new organism, neither Jew nor Gentile. The Church has no prophecy. It is outside of prophecy. As such, it cannot be involved in the things written in God’s prophetic program such as the events John revealed in Revelation.
Please show the Scriptures that explain how Jesus said the people in Revelation 7 cannot be believers of Paul’s gospel? You say, “believe what He said”; I always do. I need Scriptural proof that says these people portrayed as noble people, that put their faith in the blood of the Lamb, and received white robes from God, are not the body of Christ. They will also be led to living fountains of waters. These people are not tainted at all, but those in Revelation 15 definitely are tainted. Does this logic enter into your understanding of who these separate groups are?
I’m not grasping the meaning of your answer, seeing as Jesus is describing the end, which will be 3 1/2 years after the Rapture. Three angels will fly in the midst of heaven proclaiming the everlasting gospel, which is also the kingdom gospel. Does any of the language in Rev. 7 make you think these people were tainted with unbelief? We both know well that the Rapture separates those that put their faith in His death and resurrection. Vengeance begins on the day He gathers His believers, the Rapture. If you read on in Matt. chapter 24, you see the words Jesus uses to describe the Rapture, which are the same words He used to describe the Rapture in Luke 17:22-37. I have made my words precise on what I believe about these two prophecies and also the two groups of people in Revelation, I wish you would explain you’re understanding. These subjects are easy to understand, if you apply literal understanding, and leave the Scriptures as recorded in any KJV. If the folks in Rev. 7 are not believers of Paul’s gospel, who are they? I can tell you positively the people in Rev. 15 listen to the preaching of the angels that will fly in the midst of heaven, and their reaping will occur at the end of great tribulation, the end Jesus referred to in Matt. 24.
Daniel, All believers in Revelation are they who have believed the gospel of the kingdom. The Church is outside of prophecy. Prophecy concerns Israel and Gentiles. The Church is a new organism, neither Jew nor Gentile according to Paul. God completes the Church before end-time prophecy resumes. The Church is never mentioned in prophecy. The prophets never mention it, Jesus never mentions it, the Twelve never mention it. One becomes a member of the Church by believing Paul’s gospel, not the gospel of the kingdom.
Jesus definitely mentions the body of Christ in the Olivet Discourse. Who do you believe these people that will be Raptured in Matt. 24:31 are? And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This trumpet that Jesus will blow to send His angels to gather His elect, is the same “trump of God” Paul recorded in 1Thess.1:16-17. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Jesus also mentions the body of Christ in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. I consider myself a sheep that belongs to the other fold Jesus was referring to, the body of Christ.
Daniel, Paul wrote that the Church was a secret God revealed through him (Ephesians 3). Jesus never mentions the Church, the body of Christ. If you do not understand this, your theology will be confused. Jesus came to fulfill God’s prophetic program (Romans 15.8) that concerns Jews and Gentiles. The Church is never mentioned in any prophecy. The “other sheep” in John 10 will be the Jews who repent at Jesus’ coming. Gentiles or the Church are never called sheep in the Bible. Matthew 24.31 refers to the end of the Tribulation, after Christ returns. He will send out His angels to gather all the believers who have survived the Tribulation. This verse is essentially repeated in Matthew 25.31-32. Christ will separate believers from unbelievers. The believers will enter the kingdom.
Daniel, Of course. The trumpet in Matthew 24.31 is blown after the Lord has returned, after He has defeated the Beast and all His enemies. The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 is blown before Daniel’s 70th week begins. The Church is outside prophecy.
I believe these two trumpets are the same and will sound on the day the abomination of desolation occurs. We will simply have to agree to disagree. Thank you, I do appreciate all your efforts, and especially that you will give some of your time to indulge a person with a different understanding of what Scripture says.
Daniel, You are welcome. I hope you will come to understand what the Church is, a new creation, neither Jew nor Gentile, that it has no role in prophecy. The argument you seem to be making is that the Rapture occurs after Christ returns, after He has defeated all His enemies (for that is when the trumpet sounds in Matthew 24.31). Paul’s argument is that the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 rescues the Church from God’s wrath, the Tribulation, (1 Thessalonians 1.10; cf. Romans 5.9). This occurs before the Tribulation period begins. How does this make sense?
I argue Christ will appear in the clouds the same day the abomination of desolation happens, and then we who believe in the gospel Paul presented will be Raptured. Please don’t twist the understanding I have presented. Jesus will sound the trumpet in Matt.24:31 following His appearance in the clouds, which is recorded in the previous verse. Matt.24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I believe the prophecy Jesus gave us in Luke 17:22-37 is a sister prophecy with the Olivet Discourse. I also interpret these prophecies as literal and the prophecy Jesus told His disciples in Luke 17:22-37 is referring to 2 future consecutive days. I also do not consider the final seven years to be tribulation; it is clear to me tribulation will begin the day the Beast steps into the temple. So, to be precise the Beast will be revealed, and after that, on the same day, the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, then the following day, 6 P.M. Israel time the second day in the prophecy Luke presented will begin, and the elect will be taken from their vile bodies to meet Jesus in the air. This is my testimony, those who believe in the gospel Paul offered, will be Raptured the day after the abomination of desolation, this is not the beginning of Christ’s earthly kingdom, it will be the end of the church age, and the beginning of great tribulation. I believe this post expressed my understanding clearly. Thank you for the opportunity you provide for any to express their understanding. I will repeat, your site is hands down the best I have seen, for many reasons.
Daniel, You are free to believe whatever you wish, but the belief you have expressed fails to agree with the Scriptures. It fails to understand that all Church doctrine comes from Paul, that nothing outside of Paul’s letters concern the Church, the body of Christ, that the Church is outside of prophecy, that prophecy concerns Jew and Gentile being a new creation, neither Jew nor Gentile. Daniel states the Tribulation period is seven years, not three and a half. The Beast will operate three and a half years before he stops the daily sacrifice and declares he is God. Christ returns three and a half years after this. Let’s say no more about this topic. I know what you believe.
Since it is Hanukkah, here is an interesting topic. The history recorded in the first and second book of the Maccabees is invaluable to decipher Daniel chapter 8 and 11. Daniel chapter 8 was at the time Daniel wrote it, in the future, but now it is totally fulfilled history. The Maccabees recorded the proof required to corroborate this statement. The vision of the evening and the morning was fulfilled by Judas Maccabee. Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the three key verses located near the end of chapter 8, Dan 8:23 And in the latter part of their kingdom, when the transgressors have come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Antiochus Epiphanes lifted himself in his heart after he affectively caused the abomination of desolation, and was made putrid from his insides out, this malady caused the man to smell so bad in his last days, people could not approach him, and his pain was very great. Daniel received this prophecy at the end of the Babylonian empire. In chapter 11, Daniel begins with Alexander taking over and leads up to the abomination of desolation Antiochus Epiphanes accomplished in verse 31, the following 4 verses, 32-35, inform us of more details concerning those days around the original abomination of desolation. In verse 36 the Scriptures move forward in time and begin to describe the Beast that will perform the abomination of desolation that will begin the great tribulation to come. In my understanding, all the words from 11:36 until the end of the book, are as of yet, for the future. Please give us your thoughts concerning these prophecies.
Chart of God’s Programs
Looks like I’m the first here….
On Les Feldick today Les said that Acts 15:16-18 passage was from Amos and that it dealt with the ‘fallen down” tabernacle of 70AD. Amos was written in about 760 BC. Why couldn’t the Acts passage be referring to the temple that was destroyed by Babylon in about 586 BC?
Joe,
James had reference to the Temple’s fall in 586. James only understood that Gentiles would be blessed through Israel. He did not understand Paul’s ministry and this is clear from what he said to Paul in Acts 21. He had no idea the Temple would be destroyed again by the Romans.
Don, wonderful chart for printing then laminated for study. Thank you Bro.
Peace&Grace
Thank you. Glad you like the chart.
Don – could you please elaborate on how the chart puts forward “Days”; specifically the number of days and years. Why does the chart show the Body of Christ in the year period of 0-2000AD? Would it be unreasonable for the chart to show the Body of Christ in the year period 37-?AD ? And since the chart is depicting a “Devine Week” why would the years of the Body of Christ (Mystery; unrevealed TO the prophets) be included since Paul links it as an unspecific period of time to the “fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25). Thank you for sharing this work.
Van,
The dates on the chart are approximate. Since we’re dealing with 1,000 year periods, 0-2,000 seems appropriate. While the secret of the Church was unknown to men until Paul, God knew of it. The “days” cover God’s entire plan. Hosea indicates Israel will be set aside for 2 days. Those years comprise the Church. See my article, When Will the Lord Return?
If I had hung on and read the last 10 pages of your book the last paragraph above would have been avoided. sorry,. I still wonder where the Church will be and what they/we will be doing during the Kingdom.
ps I finished your/my book last night. I appreciate all the work you did. Writing a book like that must be very time consuming. I didn’t notice any misspelled words or awkward phrasing…..maybe a repetition of the word “instead’ on page 216 3rd line…….(mentioned for the benefit of the second edition)
Joe,
Thank you. I have found a few misspellings, etc. but had not seen the one on 216. I’ve been trying to make corrections for a new printing but want to wait a bit to try and be sure I catch most of them. Difficult to not make such errors and I really appreciate readers pointing them out.
It would be nice and much appreciated if the pdf print of the chart was enlarged so that us old guys could read it.
Thanks,
Dick
Dick,
If you click the chart it will expand.
Greetings Don,
Joe in his above comment said, “I still wonder where the Church will be and what they/we will be doing during the Kingdom.” I have that same question. Please shed some light.
Blessings,
Bob Goyer
Bob,
I have the same question. The Scriptures don’t tell us. We are told we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8). Does that mean we will share His rule in the Kingdom (1 Corinthians 6.2) or will our responsibilities be in heaven ruling angels (1 Corinthians 6.3)? Whatever the case, it is a glorious destiny.
Just a couple of random thoughts before I forget them. Maybe you can comment:
The Canaanite woman was an exception to the rule . She was a gentile and off limits to the 12. Do you suppose that this is God making the/an example that there are exceptions to some things. Possibly an unborn child or a youth of only a few years if aborted or dies is covered by Grace even though faith in the gospel of Grace is never acquired?
Second, In Genesis God separates the clean animals from the unclean. Is it possible the biological fact that interbreeding between species results in failure to reproduce fertile offspring was the plan….to keep the clean/unclean from producing hybrids and confusion among people making sacrifices…..maybe in some way related to Genesis 6 ?
just thinking…thank you
Joe,
God can make exceptions. God is not going to send anyone to hell without the ability to make a choice. God’s entire plan is based upon choice, free-will. Love requires free-will and is necessary to resolve the angelic conflict. God’s separation of animals was simply to separate Israel from the nations, to keep them different.
Don, the old debate about what happened to all the non-Hebrew or non-Christian pagan people (such as the ancient chinese, koreans, Japanese, Mayans, Hindus, etc.) who never heard of the Mosiac law or Christian gospel still intrigues me. I know that God has revealed Himself through creation as Romans 1:20 states, but it still seems to come short of being exposed to ancient Judaism and then later the Christian gospel. So I wonder if the millions of ancient chinese and other pagan peoples went to hell at death. I apologize for asking this since I know God is merciful and provides a way for any human that desires to obtain salvation. But many anti-Christian secularists like to use this argument for not believing in a ‘cruel’ God. Your thoughts?
Brian,
This concerns God’s foreknowledge and love. God will not allow anyone to perish if they are willing to respond to Him. God has given every person an awareness of Himself and it a person wishes to know God, God will provide information to be saved. God’s foreknowledge can see this. These people are in hell, not because God is “cruel,” but because they did rejected the light God gave them.
What scripture teaches that Gods entire plan is based on free choice, free will? What free will choice did Saul(Paul) make when God smacked him down on the road to Damascus? What scripture says love requires free will and is necessary to resolve the angelic conflict? Never even heard of that one. What free will choice did Pharoah have in Gods dealing with him to let Israel go? None! What free will choice did Joseph have in being sold into slavery by his own brothers? None. What choice did his brothers have in doing what they did? None. What choice does any one have to choose Christ or to believe His word? None. No one can come to Me unless the Father draws them. (John 6:44) Quite the opposite is true that NO ONE has free will, except God the Father, the truth is that God does everything according to the council of His own will ( Eph 1:11 ) Man makes his plans, ( makes his choices )but the Lord directs his steps (proverbs 16:9) God is the sovereign God over ALL His creation, even Christ is subject to Him, and He, Christ, does all His Fathers will. ( John 12:49 )
Michael,
Your comment makes me think you have not read your Bible. Free will is expressed throughout its pages. Jesus told the Jews, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23.37-39). If you don’t think this is an expression of free will, throw your Bible away. But if you’re right, you can’t. You have no will to do so. In fact, you had no will to write what you wrote.
An uncharacteristically sharp response to Michael’s question! I’m sure he has read his bible. He seems to be agreeing with Luther, whom I claim as my authority when I argue against those who assume we have a free will, which is mostly everyone I meet here in Sweden. J. I. Packer and O. R. Johnston, translators of Luther’s Bondage of the Will, wrote:
“It is safe to deduce that for Luther, any evangelist who advocates free will has not only “not yet comprehended any part of the Gospel,” but also that he has not yet preached the Gospel at all; his is a counterfeit gospel.”
Seems to be a critical issue both for Luther and doctrine.org. Which Article deals with free will? It would be an interesting read.
Anders,
So are you maintaining that no one makes a choice for salvation? Let’s assume you are a believer. You made no decision to believe the gospel? What does Jesus’ statement mean? O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say unto you, You will not see me henceforth, until you will say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23.37-39). Is there a choice here for Christ’s return? What did Paul mean in Hebrews 3.19 when he wrote the Jews that their ancestors could not enter into God’s rest because of unbelief. Did they have no choice about entering the land? Did God tell them to do something they could not do? If the reply seems sharp it is because there are literally thousands of examples of free will in the Bible. If you have missed these, it stands to reason that one has not read the Bible. And yes, I’ve read Luther’s Bondage. The notion of no free will is a deduction, not an inductive argument.
Yes, we disagree on the question of free will. And we’d best leave it at that. You have good reasons for your position I see, from reading your article on predestination, and I have for mine. (partly from reading Melanchthon’s Loci communes.) You’ve read Luther’s Bondage of the Will, which is similar, so you are familiar with their reasons. But I appreciate this site very much, and agree with most everything I read here. Forgive me for only writing when I find something to disagree with.
Anders,
Thank you. When I say “free will” I do not mean one can save himself apart from God. It is clear God takes the initiative. Exactly how the divine and human wills cooperate is a mystery. Paul wrote, “the faith is from hearing but the hearing is through the word of God” (Romans 10.17). The word of God is the mechanism under the governance of the Spirit. But one then makes a choice. That is free will. One believes or one rejects. Every person has an equal opportunity for God “wants all to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2.4). God never commands us to do something of which we are incapable.
I asked a friend whether he believes in free will. He responded, “That’s a strange question”. He didn’t seem to think it was worth reflecting over. But I have been lately, and the illustration that makes most sense to me is that, yes, I have a free will! I can get into a canoe anytime I want, and paddle across the Atlantic. I’m free to attempt that anytime I choose. I’m also helped by Sproul’s thought that IF believing in Christ is something that I have willed, then salvation is not by grace, but by works. Refusing Christ is something bad. So, that implies that I’m better than my unsaved friends. To say that God chose me and drew me to Himself because He foresaw that I would believe, doesn’t change that. I’ve still had a part in my salvation.
Anders,
I do not see where grace and free will have anything in common. This seems a completely fabricated relationship, making faith a work. If one accepts a gift, does that mean one has earned or merited it? Does it mean that the giver was not gracious? Christ did all the work. We do nothing but accept it and say, “Thank you.”
Both the Old and New Testaments are clearly based on free will.
Just consider that small word “if” wherever it is used.
It began right in the Garden…Did God give our ‘parents’ a choice?
I know this is a little late, but the great thing about Don’s site is that
people (like me) go back regularly. Thank You! Grace and Peace.
Just discovered this website, had carefully marked Paul’s. My gospel. In my bible with the intention of getting to the bottom of it ,and other interrelated differences between Paul’s ministry and the12s, as you can imagine I was literally full of joy with the knowledge that my prayers have being answered , this is truly a great place to learn , so thanks to all ……..A quick question if I may ? Are the 6000 yrs of mankind’s fallen condition counted as six days plus the 7th day of Christ’s rule which is another 1000 yr day , being a total of 49,ooo weeks of years…….leading into 50,000 weeks of years ….the great Jubilee …. the time when ….. all things are made new.
James,
God bless your answer to prayer. Never have thought about the years as Jubilee. What the new heavens/new earth will be like with respect to time is unknown.
what is the new Jerusalem
will Jewish Kingdom Saints live together with Gospel of Grace Saints eternally one day? Where?
John,
The Jewish kingdom saints will certainly live in the New Jerusalem. It is not clear that Grace saints will live there. The Church is wholly absent from the book of Revelation. All we know is that we are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ, have heavenly citizenship, and that we will rule angels. That is all God has revealed concerning the Church’s future.
Don,
Thanks so much for this chart. It is so useful in my class at the prison. Doctrine.org is my go to source for my teaching materials. I cannot thank you enough for what you have here online. The inmates enjoy learning so much what I am able to bring to them from this site. I have only one question about the chart. How do you determine the Crucifixion in 30AD? I teach it was in 32AD. I gain that from Sir Robert Anderson’s great book “The Coming prince.” His forensic ability as a detective and later the head of Scotland Yard yields him a fascinating insight into the prophecies of Dan 9. He places the the edict of Artaxerxes given to Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in the Hebrew month of Nisan in the roman calendar year of 445 BC. Given the Hebrew calendar for 483 years in Daniel’s 69 weeks prophecy this would place Jesus presenting Himself to the nation of Israel on what the church commonly refers to as Palm Sunday 173880 days from the edict or 5888 astronomical new moons which would place the crucifixion in 32 AD. Not a major thing here just curious about 30AD. Thanks again I enjoyed both your books very much and learned so much from them both which I am able to share with others.
William,
Thank you for your encouraging note. So glad you are finding the site helpful and that you are having a successful teaching ministry at the prison. So glad to hear you have willing hearts to learn and to share God’s love and blessings. The dates on the chart are general. So 30 A.D. is not a hard and fast date. May the Lord continue to bless you.
Shouldn’t the scripture reference under New Heavens and New Earth state Revelation 21.4 instead of Revelation 22.4 (no more tears, death, sorrow, crying, or pain).
Manuel,
Thanks!
Don, while listening to your Madrid you tube presentation, I’m wondering as to Cain’s eternal fate. Did he go to Abraham’s bosom and the later to Heaven, or did he go to hell? I know that God marked him on Earth for his protection. I’m also reminded of the old saying that we’ll probably be surprised at who’s in Heaven and who’s not.
Brian,
Nothing indicates Cain changed his mind about offering a blood sacrifice. See Genesis 4.16; 1 John 3.12; Jude 1.11.
Don, please forgive my elementary question, but when and why did the ‘Hebrews’ become widely called the ‘Jews’? Did it have something to do with the geographical location of settling in Judea? I seem to notice this change sometime around the later half of the Old Testament. After all of my deep philosophical/cosmic questions to you, here’s a relatively simple one. LOL.
Brian,
See https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3064&t=KJV.
Don, I apologize if you’ve addressed this question elsewhere, but what do you think about the gematria method of calculation being used by some people in ascertaining dates or identities when analysing the Hebrew text? On the surface, it doesn’t sound right to me. Should I avoid it?
Brian,
Avoid. Too much speculation. Stay with the clear text.
Hello Don. How are you? How is your health?
Question: During the age of law was God a bit unfair to people that observed the whole mosaic giving salvation to them? I don’t think I would have survived keeping the whole law if I were born in that time compared to now in this age of grace.
Second son,
No one could keep the Law. God provided the Levitical sacrifices as the mercy aspect of the Law. Faith was required for salvation in the OT just as today. Only it was not faith alone. Works had to accompany it.
Don,
I found this on the net and it’s a question I never considered. What about the resurrection of those believers who believed before Abraham? Thoughts?
“The Bible doesn’t give specifics on the resurrection of pre-Abrahamic believers, but they would not live in the New Jerusalem, nor would they participate in the bema seat judgment, both of which are exclusive to the Church. Neither would they appear at the Sheep & goat judgment, which is for tribulation survivors. The Great White Throne judgment is for unbelievers of all ages so those who rejected the Lord, no matter when they were born, will be there (Rev. 20:12-15)”.
Joe,
God’s prophetic plan concerns Israel and the nations (Gentiles). I assume believers who died before Abraham will be resurrected with the Jews and go into the kingdom, which will be occupied by Israel and the nations. I see no reason the cannot live in the New Jerusalem. It is earthly, part of God’s prophetic program.
Don,
Matthew 25 speaks of the judgement of the sheep and goats. I think I know the destination of the sheep. What happens to the goats?
Thank you
Joe,
They go to hell to await Christ’s judgment at the great white throne.
Don,
Were things so politically bad during the time of Acts 1-3 that if Christ had been accepted by the Jews by the preaching of Peter the Tribulation would soon have ensued? Many (Preterists) take the destruction of Jerusalem as the Tribulation. I can’t detect the festering of what would bring about the ‘wrath to come’ at the time of the Crucifixion or the next few years that followed. Question #2–what was the reason the Romans destroyed Jerusalem?
Since I’m waxing historical—-Q #3–Can we blame Origen and Augustine for the division we see in Christianity today…. amillennialism vs premillennialism? It appears the earliest (origin) of the Church fathers were Chilliests but soon became allegorical.
Joe,
All the apostles thought the Tribulation would occur in their lifetime. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem due to a Jewish revolt that began in 66 A.D. Origen and Augustine share significant blame but when you read the Church fathers, they all had lost the distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and Paul’s gospel, God’s prophetic program and His Church program. This apostasy is revealed by Paul’s statement in 2 Timothy 1.15.
Thank you Don,
Yes, I’ve learned that the earliest existing document (100AD) ‘Didache’ was supposedly the teaching of the 12 and no mention of Paul. Didn’t take long to drop Paul—–40 yrs?
Don, I’m a little conflicted as I’ve been reading ‘Absolutely Free’ by Zane Hodges. It seems that he, Charles Ryrie, Charles Swindol, etc., grasped only a part of the larger dispensational truth. Although they’re big on God’s grace and highly promote Paul, they also mix his teachings/revelations with John, Peter and the rest which leads to more confusion. For example, they tend to cite John”s Gospel heavily for salvation while ignoring or missing the exact Gospel of grace that the Lord specifically gave to Paul to give to us. Sadly, I wonder as to Hodges, Ryrie’s, etc , eternal fate now because of this. Yes, they taught scriptural truth, but their misguided mixture could also reveal their ultimate error and possible destiny. Your thoughts?
Brian,
I do not doubt their salvation. What I do know is none of these men understood Pauline theology. I graduated from DTS. None of my teachers understood Paul. Ryrie had retired when I was there but I had Hodges for a class. My teachers thought Paul was an addition to the Twelve, the Church began at Pentecost, Peter, etc. proclaimed the same gospel as Paul. They did not understood Paul’s secrets were unique to him. This is why you see the mixing with John’s Gospel. DTS has moved further away from Dispensationalism and embraced covenant theology (progressive dispensationalism) to a large degree. They have gone in exactly the wrong direction and are further from sound theology than before. While the professors are highly educated, they have little understanding of theology.
I have this same type of chart from over 35 years ago, and it’s a great way to show God’s secret plan of grace. Very nice, Don.
Don, Is this man’s definition correct? This Q&A is off the net.
“I was reading Ezekiel 38 again and ran across the statement of Israel dwelling safely when Gog and Magog war begins. I thought that Israel returned to God during the war and that until they returned to Him they would not dwell safely.
A
The Hebrew word translated safely in Ezekiel 38:8 is meant to describe a state of mind rather than actual fact. It can also mean confidently and carelessly. In other words, they’ll think they are safe but subsequent events will prove it was only a perception. Today they don’t even have that.”
Joe,
That’s an interpretive definition. It can mean this but that sense is not intrinsic to the word. See how it is used: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h983/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Hi, I was so enlightened by your teaching so much so I passed your website doctrine.org to my friends but they said they are unable to find it in website. Please explain.
Margaret,
Thank you. I’m not sure your question concerns the website or the chart. The chart can be accessed under “Chart” under the Articles list.
Don, the popular You Tube preacher, Robert Breaker, teaches that there are eight dispensations. He lists: 1) Edenic 2) Ante-Diluvian 3) Post-Diluvian 4) Patriarchal 5) Legal (The Law) 6) Faith/Ecclesiastical/The Church Age (Grace) 7) The Tribulation 8) The Messianic Millennial Kingdom… Breaker is a devout student of the deceased Peter Ruckman, a KJV only believer, and emphasizes a strict belief in the Blood Atonement of Christ along with promoting the 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Gospel. Yes, the Gospel implies Christ’s shed and sprinkled blood on our behalf, but Breaker also maintains that we must specifically trust in the blood to be saved. Your thoughts?
Brian,
Trusting in Christ’s blood means trusting in His death. Leviticus tells us the life of the flesh is in the blood. Thus, blood=life. I do not understand Breaker’s point. Christ also had to shed His blood to fulfill the prophetic types of the shedding of blood of animals.
Don, Robert Breaker can be obtuse sometimes. For example, when I posted the sequence of Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:14 in a comments section for one of his You Tube videos, I’d get rebuked or corrected for not specifically noting Christ’s literal blood with it. Yes, I know that Christ shed and sprinkled His literal blood on our behalf. Absolutely. I trust in the blood atonement. It’s definitely integral to the Gospel. But if all a person with a limited scriptural knowledge knew initially that he or she was a sinner deserving of hell and then believed the Gospel specifically stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1(3)-4, then that should be sufficient for him or her to be saved. And then he or she could build upon this foundation by learning more. It seems that Breaker and his followers demand more initially for an unbeliever to become a regenerate believer. It may be splitting hairs, but I sometimes get frustrated with people adding more details to the basic initial step of salvation. I don’t mean to vent, but even well intentioned true believers can go overboard sometimes with the basics.
Brian,
It is best to keep communication of the message of salvation simple. The clearest statement of the gospel which saves is 1 Corinthians 15.1-4, yet too few use it. We first come to the Lord, then learn about the many aspects of the salvation we have.
Don, I dont know why believers make the Gospel harder than it needs to be. My pastor friend says in order to take part in the rapture, just believe Romans 10:13 ” For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” That’s not the whole Gospel that saves.
Craig,
Ask him how he was saved. Might provide some insight.
Craig,
Have had that scripture thrown at us too many times to remember. A good example of “cherry picking” scripture. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10.13). However, if you go back two verses you see this: “For the scripture saith” (Rom. 10.11). Paul is quoting Joel 2.32: “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered”. If I’m correct the Jewish prophet Joel did not have revelation from the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ. Paul did and prefaces his quote of Joel with “That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, AND BELIEVE IN THINE HEART THAT GOD HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, thou shalt be saved” (Rom. 10.9). This is also complimented by 1 Cor. 15.1-4. Sometimes it just helps to remove the verse numbers. They weren’t “divinely breathed” (2 Tim. 3.16). Blessings!
Faith plus nothing.
Faith in Jn 3:16? Faith in Acts 2:38? Faith in prayers to Mary? or Faith in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?
Don, what do you think of Clarence Larkin? Robert Breaker and others hold him in high esteem. Although, Breaker criticizes Bullinger for being too extreme with ‘hyper dispensationalism’ but likes Larkin. Actually, I’ve found that there’s not much difference between what Breaker’s mentor, Peter Ruckman, taught and Bullinger’s ‘hyper dispensationalism.’ These random label accusations become comical and somewhat meaningless after a while. Besides Breaker’s/Ruckman’s strict KJV only stance and young Earth creationism belief, there’s also really not much difference between what you teach and what they teach. Both of you teach the 1 Corinthians 15:1(3)-4 Gospel of grace/blood atonement and stress Paul’s unique Ministry, etc.
Brian,
Larkin was a gifted artist and excelled in illustrating Acts 2 dispensationalism. Acts 2 dispensationalists believe the Church began at Pentecost, which is impossible. They also fail to understand Paul’s unique apostleship and secrets. Bullinger had his own problems, particularly expressed in his later life, the idea that the Church did not begin until the prison epistles.
Don, I’m about to read C.S. Lewis’s commentary on the Book of Psalm. I know it falls under the Mosaic Law dispensation and records David’s turbulent state of mind. But of course it also has fulfilled Messianic prophecies. Lewis didn’t seem to grasp the correct dispensational divisions. Although he was keen as to the free will aspect. So maybe I shouldn’t waste my time reading his commentary. What are your thoughts as to reading and studying the inaccurate or incomplete analyses of brilliant scholars who may get it right in certain areas and wrong in others?
Brian,
Lewis did not understand Paul’s unique apostleship but had many penetrating insights into the Christian life and God’s purposes.
Hello: I have a question about evangelization of Jews and Muslims.
It seems logical that a deceased Jew (or Muslim) who was not baptized and rejected Christ is not saved. Therefore, all deceased unbelieving Jew since the foot of the cross are not in Heaven. They also won’t be alive to witness the Tribulation or survive it. So are all those deceased unbelieving and anti-Christian Jews doomed to Hell forever?
Oh, and my original question: Should we not therefore be trying to evangelize Jews and Muslims to day? If they die, they are doomed. We cannot assume that Jews won’t die before they have a chance to become Christians at the Tribulation times, right?.
(It sometimes seem some Christians are willing to give immoral and oftentimes hate-filled anti-Christ Jews in our time a free pass, because they are needed for the Tribulation? But that doesn’t account for all the Jewish souls who die before the Tribulation, those unevangelized, that are doomed to Hell for their disbelief in Jesus, active efforts to hurt His church and sheep, and their lack of good works (refusal to honor Torah morality, e.g. 10 Commandments etc. because of the adoption of Talmudism (kabballah/occult))
Thanks.
DJ,
All who do not trust in the God of the Bible go to hell. In our present day, all who do not believe Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4) go to hell. Most of the human race falls into this category (Matthew 7.13-14), not just Jews and Muslims.
“What did Paul mean in Hebrews 3.19 when he wrote the Jews that their ancestors could not enter into God’s rest because of unbelief. ”
Why then do “Christian Zionists” or any mainstream Christian these days not see a need to convert the Jews?
DJ,
1. The “rest” was entering the land God had promised them. 2. Unbelief.
Don, is Michael Heiser’s ‘The Unseen Realm’ worth reading and studying? I’m aware of his technical expertise when it comes to ancient semitic languages and the Old Testament. I’m just curious if Heiser contradicted any of the scriptural truth that you and a very few others teach. For example, I’ve heard how Heiser promoted ‘The Divine Council’ teaching. And he also refuted the bogus ‘ancient aliens’ theory of Eric von Daniken and other profiteering sensationalists.
Brian,
Heiser was a brilliant Hebrew scholar and while others wrote about the Divine Council, Heiser made this his signature subject. He’s worth reading and brings out issues and subjects neglected in Christendom, especially Jesus’ mission to resolve the angelic conflict.
Don, what’s your view of Psalm 82? Dr. Heiser has debated ‘highly educated’ mormons professors over this passage. Apparently, they like to use it to reinforce their heresy. As mormons seem to promote a form of polytheism claiming that Yahweh was once a man, and we/humans can also become gods. A total demonic distortion.
Brian,
I have not come to a firm conclusion about this psalm. Heiser and others have made a compelling case for the Divine Council, which I accept. God will to judge the angelic host in rebellion to Him. The Mormon idea that this psalm supports their teaching that Jesus was once a man and men become gods cannot be support by this psalm. No where in the Scriptures are we told this. We are told we will have eternal life, resurrected, immortal bodies capable of flying and going through matter, that we will judge/rule angels, that we will be in God’s presence forever. It should also be noted that the plural noun אֱלֹהִים is used for rulers/judges (cf. Exodus 21.6, 22.8-9; 1 Samuel 2.25).
Don, I asked a post tribulation site this question, are the folks recorded in Rev.7:9-10 the same folks recorded in Rev.15:2-5? His answer was affirmative. I would like to know what you’re understanding to this question is also, please elaborate.
Daniel,
The timing of certain scenes in Revelation is difficult. Some things are clearly at the beginning, middle, and end, but other things are not so clear. It appears to me that the Revelation 15 passage cited occurs before the Revelation 7 passage, which seems to be at the end.
Do you believe that the Salvation gained today through the blood of the Lamb will continue after the Rapture?
Daniel,
The gospel of the kingdom will be the message of salvation during the Tribulation (Matthew 24.14). The faith portion of the gospel of the kingdom is to believe who Jesus is, the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 16; John 1, 11; Acts 8, 9). The great test in the Tribulation is who is God. The Beast will claim to be God and prove it through miracles. But he is a liar, a counterfeit, and his power comes from Satan. Those who will be saved will believe that Jesus is the true God, not the Beast.
There is a judgment at the end of the tribulation. Believers will go into the Kingdom. Where do the living unbelievers go because there is also a judgment at the end of the Kingdom for unbelievers who are then cast into hell. I can see the unbelievers at the end of the Trib are alive and at the end of the Kingdom are raised from the dead. Do the unbelievers at the end of the Trib go to hell at that time and a thousand yrs later those unbelievers who died in the OT and are resurrected for the Great White Throne judgment get cast into Hell?
Joe,
It appears so. No unbeliever goes into the kingdom.
Allow me to rephrase the question, are those saved through Paul’s gospel the only class of people eligible to be saved through the blood of the Lamb?
Daniel,
The blood of Christ, His death paying the penalty for our sins and His resurrection, have always been the basis of salvation. Before it occurred, it was looked forward to by animal sacrifices. The ascended Christ revealed this to Paul and His death and resurrection became Paul’s gospel. Trusting in His death and resurrection is how one is saved today. While this remains true, the basis of salvation in the Tribulation will be the gospel of the kingdom, believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. This was what Jesus told the Twelve when they asked Him about end times (Matthew 24.14). Israel’s national salvation will be accepting that Jesus is the Messiah (Matthew 23.37-39; Romans 11.26).
The folks in Rev. 7:9-10 will have the robes they receive washed in the blood of the Lamb and will come out of great tribulation. Do you believe it is possible these folks will be redeemed before any supernatural wrath is manifest upon the earth? After all, believing in the blood of the Lamb is the reason Scripture gives us for the redemption of “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and tongues”. I ask this question because Paul taught us, we will not experience wrath, and I believe the great multitude will be those that believe in the gospel Jesus revealed to Paul and will come out of great tribulation.
Daniel,
It seems to me that these are Jews and Gentiles who die during the Tribulation due to Beast, those who refused to take his mark, those who believed the gospel of the kingdom.
Rev.7:14 ¶And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Doesn’t the greek say these come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION ?
τῆς μεγάλης (the great), τῆς θλίψεως (the tribulation)
These are the same words used in Matt.24
Matthew 24:21 KJV — For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Thus this is the Lord speaking with His own disciples of His own Nation. Isn’t this also known as “the time of Jacob’s trouble?
Jeremiah 30:7 KJV — Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Also i don’t see any doctrine of Paul’s in Revelation.
A person today is washed in the blood of Christ because they believe Jesus died for their sins and rose again, this is the gospel Paul recorded for us, do you believe this grace will actually be extended into the great tribulation beginning at the abomination of desolation? That those folks who at first opportunity declined the offer afforded to us today, are offered grace, again? The requirement presented in the final 3 1/2 years is recorded with these words, “worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” This information is preached by the first angel flying in the midst of heaven after the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. The third angel that will fly in the midst of heaven informs us, also with a loud voice, those that take the mark of the Beast will receive torment and have no rest day or night. Two verses later we find these words, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” Tribulation saints will work to receive salvation. Please make us understand, do you personally believe the salvation God offers people today by blood of the Lamb will continue beyond the Rapture?
Daniel,
The blood of Christ is what saves people throughout human history. The animal sacrifices looked forward to it, we now look back to it. Whatever the time period, God tells us how to be saved, what to believe. During Jesus’ earthly ministry, it was to believe He was the Messiah, the Son of God. This faith continues in the Tribulation according to what Jesus said in Matthew 24.14.
You stated it is difficult to understand the timing of some things in Revelation, then you stated, you believe the scene recorded about the folks in Revelation 15:2-5 occur before the scene portrayed in Rev. 7:9-10. How is this even possible seeing that we know for sure the people in Rev.15:2-5 are tribulation saints? These people, without a doubt will be the final group redeemed, and they will have to work to receive salvation. But the folks in Rev. 7:9-10, are washed in the blood of the Lamb, “they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.” I know you are capable of logic, why not understand the folks in Rev. 7:9-10 are believers of the gospel Paul recorded, and will stand in front of God’s throne blameless, and receive robes of white? The people portrayed in Rev. 7 are noble, but those in Rev. 15 are tainted. We also know these tainted folks will return to the earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years, while the noble folks are lead ” unto living fountains of waters.” It requires us to apply common sense to Scripture when we study.
Daniel,
The people in Revelation 7 cannot be believers of Paul’s gospel because Jesus said so. Believe what He said. Those who believe Paul’s gospel become members of the Church, the body of Christ. But the Church, the body of Christ, is nowhere in Revelation. There is not one word of Church language in the book.
This post is to thank you for the opportunity to express the understanding I have gathered. Other websites I frequent do not hold a candle to the way you have structured yours. I authored a book a decade ago, and Christian Faith Publishing published it for me. I paid thousands of dollars and sold maybe a dozen copies, and most of those dozen copies I purchased. I gave all but one away. The folks I gave them to might love Jesus, but none were Bible students, therefore they understood very little of the understanding I recorded. Although we disagree on many subjects of study, I believe we agree on more subjects than we disagree. I have visited literally dozens of churches in the select areas I have lived in, and I have not found a single church that will preach Paul’s gospel as the gospel for Christians, seriously not one. You have deleted a few of my posts, but for the most part you allow my words to be seen by others. So again, I want to thank you for the opportunity to express my understanding. Thank You!
Daniel,
Thank you. I try to give understanding to the Scriptures. To understand them, one must recognize the unique apostleship of Paul, that God gave him revelations, which he called secrets, to him and him alone. These secrets concern the Church, the body of Christ, which is outside of God’s covenant and prophetic program for Israel. The Church was a new organism, neither Jew nor Gentile. The Church has no prophecy. It is outside of prophecy. As such, it cannot be involved in the things written in God’s prophetic program such as the events John revealed in Revelation.
Please show the Scriptures that explain how Jesus said the people in Revelation 7 cannot be believers of Paul’s gospel? You say, “believe what He said”; I always do. I need Scriptural proof that says these people portrayed as noble people, that put their faith in the blood of the Lamb, and received white robes from God, are not the body of Christ. They will also be led to living fountains of waters. These people are not tainted at all, but those in Revelation 15 definitely are tainted. Does this logic enter into your understanding of who these separate groups are?
Daniel,
Read Matthew 24.14. The gospel of the kingdom is not Paul’s gospel.
I’m not grasping the meaning of your answer, seeing as Jesus is describing the end, which will be 3 1/2 years after the Rapture. Three angels will fly in the midst of heaven proclaiming the everlasting gospel, which is also the kingdom gospel. Does any of the language in Rev. 7 make you think these people were tainted with unbelief? We both know well that the Rapture separates those that put their faith in His death and resurrection. Vengeance begins on the day He gathers His believers, the Rapture. If you read on in Matt. chapter 24, you see the words Jesus uses to describe the Rapture, which are the same words He used to describe the Rapture in Luke 17:22-37. I have made my words precise on what I believe about these two prophecies and also the two groups of people in Revelation, I wish you would explain you’re understanding. These subjects are easy to understand, if you apply literal understanding, and leave the Scriptures as recorded in any KJV. If the folks in Rev. 7 are not believers of Paul’s gospel, who are they? I can tell you positively the people in Rev. 15 listen to the preaching of the angels that will fly in the midst of heaven, and their reaping will occur at the end of great tribulation, the end Jesus referred to in Matt. 24.
Daniel,
All believers in Revelation are they who have believed the gospel of the kingdom. The Church is outside of prophecy. Prophecy concerns Israel and Gentiles. The Church is a new organism, neither Jew nor Gentile according to Paul. God completes the Church before end-time prophecy resumes. The Church is never mentioned in prophecy. The prophets never mention it, Jesus never mentions it, the Twelve never mention it. One becomes a member of the Church by believing Paul’s gospel, not the gospel of the kingdom.
Jesus definitely mentions the body of Christ in the Olivet Discourse. Who do you believe these people that will be Raptured in Matt. 24:31 are? And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This trumpet that Jesus will blow to send His angels to gather His elect, is the same “trump of God” Paul recorded in 1Thess.1:16-17. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Jesus also mentions the body of Christ in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. I consider myself a sheep that belongs to the other fold Jesus was referring to, the body of Christ.
Daniel,
Paul wrote that the Church was a secret God revealed through him (Ephesians 3). Jesus never mentions the Church, the body of Christ. If you do not understand this, your theology will be confused. Jesus came to fulfill God’s prophetic program (Romans 15.8) that concerns Jews and Gentiles. The Church is never mentioned in any prophecy. The “other sheep” in John 10 will be the Jews who repent at Jesus’ coming. Gentiles or the Church are never called sheep in the Bible. Matthew 24.31 refers to the end of the Tribulation, after Christ returns. He will send out His angels to gather all the believers who have survived the Tribulation. This verse is essentially repeated in Matthew 25.31-32. Christ will separate believers from unbelievers. The believers will enter the kingdom.
Do you believe the trumpet in Matt. 24:31 is a different trumpet than the one recorded in 1Thess.1:16-17?
Daniel,
Of course. The trumpet in Matthew 24.31 is blown after the Lord has returned, after He has defeated the Beast and all His enemies. The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 is blown before Daniel’s 70th week begins. The Church is outside prophecy.
I believe these two trumpets are the same and will sound on the day the abomination of desolation occurs. We will simply have to agree to disagree. Thank you, I do appreciate all your efforts, and especially that you will give some of your time to indulge a person with a different understanding of what Scripture says.
Daniel,
You are welcome. I hope you will come to understand what the Church is, a new creation, neither Jew nor Gentile, that it has no role in prophecy. The argument you seem to be making is that the Rapture occurs after Christ returns, after He has defeated all His enemies (for that is when the trumpet sounds in Matthew 24.31). Paul’s argument is that the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 rescues the Church from God’s wrath, the Tribulation, (1 Thessalonians 1.10; cf. Romans 5.9). This occurs before the Tribulation period begins. How does this make sense?
I argue Christ will appear in the clouds the same day the abomination of desolation happens, and then we who believe in the gospel Paul presented will be Raptured. Please don’t twist the understanding I have presented. Jesus will sound the trumpet in Matt.24:31 following His appearance in the clouds, which is recorded in the previous verse. Matt.24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I believe the prophecy Jesus gave us in Luke 17:22-37 is a sister prophecy with the Olivet Discourse. I also interpret these prophecies as literal and the prophecy Jesus told His disciples in Luke 17:22-37 is referring to 2 future consecutive days. I also do not consider the final seven years to be tribulation; it is clear to me tribulation will begin the day the Beast steps into the temple. So, to be precise the Beast will be revealed, and after that, on the same day, the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, then the following day, 6 P.M. Israel time the second day in the prophecy Luke presented will begin, and the elect will be taken from their vile bodies to meet Jesus in the air. This is my testimony, those who believe in the gospel Paul offered, will be Raptured the day after the abomination of desolation, this is not the beginning of Christ’s earthly kingdom, it will be the end of the church age, and the beginning of great tribulation. I believe this post expressed my understanding clearly. Thank you for the opportunity you provide for any to express their understanding. I will repeat, your site is hands down the best I have seen, for many reasons.
Daniel,
You are free to believe whatever you wish, but the belief you have expressed fails to agree with the Scriptures. It fails to understand that all Church doctrine comes from Paul, that nothing outside of Paul’s letters concern the Church, the body of Christ, that the Church is outside of prophecy, that prophecy concerns Jew and Gentile being a new creation, neither Jew nor Gentile. Daniel states the Tribulation period is seven years, not three and a half. The Beast will operate three and a half years before he stops the daily sacrifice and declares he is God. Christ returns three and a half years after this. Let’s say no more about this topic. I know what you believe.
Since it is Hanukkah, here is an interesting topic. The history recorded in the first and second book of the Maccabees is invaluable to decipher Daniel chapter 8 and 11. Daniel chapter 8 was at the time Daniel wrote it, in the future, but now it is totally fulfilled history. The Maccabees recorded the proof required to corroborate this statement. The vision of the evening and the morning was fulfilled by Judas Maccabee. Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the three key verses located near the end of chapter 8, Dan 8:23 And in the latter part of their kingdom, when the transgressors have come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Antiochus Epiphanes lifted himself in his heart after he affectively caused the abomination of desolation, and was made putrid from his insides out, this malady caused the man to smell so bad in his last days, people could not approach him, and his pain was very great. Daniel received this prophecy at the end of the Babylonian empire. In chapter 11, Daniel begins with Alexander taking over and leads up to the abomination of desolation Antiochus Epiphanes accomplished in verse 31, the following 4 verses, 32-35, inform us of more details concerning those days around the original abomination of desolation. In verse 36 the Scriptures move forward in time and begin to describe the Beast that will perform the abomination of desolation that will begin the great tribulation to come. In my understanding, all the words from 11:36 until the end of the book, are as of yet, for the future. Please give us your thoughts concerning these prophecies.
Daniel,
Agree. Antiochus Ephiphanes was a typological forerunner of the one who will become the Beast (the Antichrist) of Revelation.