Introduction
The phrase “the day of Christ” or “the day of the Lord Jesus” is unique to the Apostle Paul. Paul also called the day of Christ “that day” in his last letter. The phrases are found in 1 Corinthians 1.8, 3.13, 5.5; 2 Corinthians 1.14; Philippians 1.6, 10, 2.16; 2 Timothy 1.18, 4.8.
On the other hand, the phrase “the day of the Lord” (also called “that day”) is common throughout the Old Testament. The prophets referred constantly to it. In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ, Paul, and Peter referred to it. Some of the passages are the following: Isaiah 2.12, 13.6, 9; 34.8; Ezekiel 13.5; 30.3; Joel 1.15, 2.1, 11, 31, 3.14; Amos 5.18, 5.20; Obadiah 1.15; Zephaniah 1.7, 14; Zechariah 14.1; Malachi 4.5; Matthew 24.1-51; Acts 2.20; Romans 2.5; 1 Thessalonians 5.2; 2 Thessalonians 2.2; 2 Peter 3.10; Revelation 1.10 and “that day” Isaiah 2.11, 17, 20; 3.18. This day is a time of terror, darkness, and wrath. It is a “day of visitation” (Isaiah 10.3), a “day of the wrath of the Lord” (Ezekiel 7.19), the “great day of the Lord” (Zephaniah 1.14).
Contrasting the Two Days
A stark contrast exists between these two days. The chart below outlines the differences.
| Day of Christ | Day of the Lord |
| For the Church (the Body of Christ) | For rejectors of Christ |
| A day of blessing and reward | A day of judgment |
| A heavenly hope | An earthly despair |
| Eagerly anticipated | Feared and dreaded |
The Day of Christ
The chart below notes the verses that refer to the Day of Christ. They are all from Paul since God did not reveal it in the Old Testament, during Jesus’ earthly ministry, or later to the Twelve. The ascended Lord revealed this Day unto Paul for it is a day that has reference to the Church, the Body of Christ exclusively. Paul called it our “blessed hope” (Titus 2.13) and is the day which believers eagerly anticipate.
| Day of Christ | Comment |
11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light (Romans 13.11-12). | Paul’s first allusion to the Day of Christ encouraged the Romans to live holy lives. The salvation mentioned was the Lord’s return, the Rapture, when the believer will receive a resurrection body (glorification). Paul believed the Lord would return in his lifetime. |
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1.4-8). | Paul wrote the Corinthians that they were enriched in Christ, in all speech and knowledge, that they were true believers, and lacked in no gift. They eagerly awaited the return of Christ who would establish them blameless until the end. No hint of judgment is in this day (cf. 1 Thessalonians 1.9-10, 5.9). |
| Each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work (1 Corinthians 3.13). | In the “day of Christ” believers works will be judged. This will most likely determine rewards, responsibilities, and rank. |
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5.1-5). | Paul had to deal with a situation of immorality so offensive he said it didn’t even happen among pagans. Paul’s judgment in the matter was “to deliver the person to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.” In other words, he prayed for his death so that he might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Sometimes it is more merciful for someone to die before their normal time if their actions will harm the Church or themselves. This man was saved and Paul wanted the best for him when Christ returned for his Body. |
| 3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1.3-6). | The Philippians embraced the gospel faithfully from the beginning (the first convert in Europe was Lydia, cf. Acts 16.14). Paul wrote encouragingly that God would continue his good work until Christ returned. Again, no mention of wrath is in the day. |
| 8 For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; (Philippians 1.8-10) | Paul expressed his love for these Philippians and prayed their love would abound in real knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις) and they would approve (δοκιμάζω) “try,” “test” things that were excellent to be unsullied when Christ returned. |
| 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain (Philippians 2.14-16). | Paul encouraged the Philippians to good behavior, to be above reproach, to stand as examples in a perverse world, and to hold fast to the Scriptures. They were his glory and he wanted his hard work to them to bear fruit and celebrate their success when Christ returned for his Body. |
| 12 For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you. 13 For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end; 14 just as you also partially did understand us, that we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus (2 Corinthians 1.12-14). | Paul wrote the Corinthians that in good conscience he had conducted himself with integrity towards them. Together, they had a mutual source of pride: they could be proud of him and he them in the day of Christ. When Christ returns for his body there will great celebration and reward. Again, no hint of wrath, woe, or fear is present. |
| 16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains; 17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me— 18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day—and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus (2 Timothy 1.16-18). | Paul asked the Lord for special mercy to Onesiphorus and his household for he had not been ashamed of Paul’s imprisonment but searched determinedly for him. Paul wished Onesiphorus reward when the Lord returned. No wrath. |
| 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Timothy 4.6-8). | Paul knew his execution was near. He knew he had been faithful to the Lord and that the Lord had a crown of righteousness for him when he returned as well as for all who eagerly anticipate His return. Once again, no mention of wrath or terror in this return of the Lord. |
The Day of the Lord
Many scriptures speak of the Day of the Lord (יוֹם יְהוָה). It is concisely described by the prophet Zephaniah:
14 Near is the great day of the LORD, near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
15 A day of wrath is that day, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and the high corner towers.
17 I will bring distress on men so that they will walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the LORD; And their blood will be poured out like dust and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them
On the day of the LORD’s wrath; And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, for He will make a complete end, indeed a terrifying one, of all the inhabitants of the earth (Zephaniah 1.14-18).
Jesus spoke of this day in Matthew 24.1-51. He echoed the horrors of this time with his words:
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short (Matthew 24.21-22).
The Day of the Lord is that time of judgment in which God will judge Israel for her unbelief (Jeremiah 30.7) and the nations of the world for their rejection of Christ. The day will end with the return of the Lord (Matthew 24.30; Revelation 19.11-19). He warned his listeners to be prepared for this day (Matthew 24.42-51).
The earliest reference to this day is in Psalm 2. An understanding of this Psalm is critical to a correct understanding of Jewish eschatology. It succinctly outlined the whole prophetic program for Israel (1st and 2nd Advents) and the Messianic Kingdom on earth.
| Psalm 2 | Comment |
| 1 Why are the nations in an uproar and the peoples devising a vain thing? | Nations refer to Gentiles; peoples refers to Jews. |
| 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, | Verse 2 parallels verse one. Gentile powers consorted with Israel to crucify the Messiah and will consort again when the Antichrist comes. |
| 3 “Let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us!” | The mental attitude of rebellion of Jews and Gentiles against God’s rule. |
| 4 He who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord scoffs at them. | God laughs in scorn in response to man’s foolish rebellion (v. 3). |
| 5 Then He will speak to them in His anger and terrify them in His fury, saying, | This verse refers to God’s judgment primarily to the Day of the Lord. He will judge the world for its unbelief. |
| 6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King upon Zion, My holy mountain.” | God’s plan is for the Son to rule earth from Mt. Zion (Jerusalem). |
| 7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. | The Son declares His right to rule: Begotten refers to Christ’s resurrection (Acts 13.33; Romans 1.4; Hebrews 1.3, 5). |
| 8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as Your possession. | The Messiah is worthy to fulfill God’s prophetic plan to establish His kingdom on earth because of who He is and his work on the cross. |
| 9 ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, you shall shatter them like earthenware.'” | Christ will return to defeat his enemies and rule earth with a rod of iron (Revelation 2.27, 12.5, 19.15). |
| 10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. | Again parallelism: God warns kings (Gentiles) and judges (Israel) to be forewarned of His intent. |
| 11 Worship the LORD with reverence and rejoice with trembling. | God’s counsels worship of Him with reverence: Christ is coming to rule. |
| 12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! | God’s final warning: the fate of all who refuse to acknowledge and honor His Son is doom. On the other hand, all who love Him are blessed forever. |
Paul’s Warnings
Paul made it clear that the Church would not experience the Day of the Lord. Notice the difference between the following two passages:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words (1 Thessalonians 4.13-18).
. . .
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape (1 Thessalonians 5.1-3).
. . .
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing (1 Thessalonians 5.4-11).
In the first passage, Paul’s subject was believers. The bolded text, “we,” “you” refers to believers. Paul wrote that the Lord would come for believers and closed the passage with a word of comfort (cf. 1 Thessalonians 1.9-10). Notice the contrast in the next passage. The bolded text “they,” “them” refers to unbelievers. They, unbelievers, not believers, will experience the Day of the Lord (Tribulation). He closed this passage with “us,” “we,” “you” again as the subject to contrast and demonstrate that God has not destined believers for wrath, i.e., the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation. Because of this hope and confidence, we are to encourage one another. These passages indicate clearly that the Church, the Body of Christ, will not undergo God’s wrath of the Tribulation.
Paul wrote another letter to the Thessalonians to correct a false teaching that had come to this congregation. The false teachers taught the Church would undergo the Tribulation.1 Paul wrote,
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come (2 Thessalonians 2.1-2).
Apparently, someone had written a letter and signed Paul’s name which stated that the “day of the Lord” had come.2 This had shaken the Thessalonians because Paul had taught them that before the Day of the Lord came the Lord would come and remove them (the body of Christ) from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4.14-18 cf. 1 Corinthians 15.51-52) which was a source of comfort (1 Thessalonians 4.18). Paul taught that this “day” was a secret (μυστήριον), unknown until the risen Lord had revealed it to him (1 Corinthians 15.51).
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2.3-4)
Paul cautioned the Thessalonians not to be deceived by anyone who was teaching them that they had entered the Tribulation. This is not possible for God will remove His Church before this occurs. He reminded them of his teaching that the sign of the Day of the Lord was the appearance of the “man of lawlessness,” “the son of destruction.” This individual has several other names, e.g., “lawless one” (2 Thessalonians 2.8), “the beast” (Revelation 11.7), “antichrist” (1 John 2.18). He will be identified ultimately by his blasphemy of God for he will establish his throne in the Jewish temple and declare himself to be God (cf. Revelation 13.12, 15, 14.9, 11).
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2. 6-7).
At the present time, the Antichrist is restrained by God. The most likely reason is the presence of the Holy Spirit who indwells believers. When the Body of Christ is complete, God will remove it and hence, the Holy Spirit. This event is known as the Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is synonymous with the Day of Christ. Sometime after that (the Bible does not reveal how much time will pass) the Antichrist will become manifest. Another “mystery” the Lord revealed to Paul was this “mystery of lawlessness”. See Paul’s “Mystery.” Paul wrote that this “mystery of lawlessness” was already at work. This means that Satan has been at work to set up his man to rule the world since the first century. It is possible that he may have someone ready to assume this role in every generation.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness (2 Thessalonians. 2.8-12).
Sometime after the Body of Christ is removed, the Antichrist will be revealed. God will destroy him at his coming (Revelation 19.11-20). The Antichrist will exercise Satanic powers (ability to perform miracles) which will deceive most of humanity. The world’s population will be deceived because it has rejected the truth. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, when one rejects truth deception fills the place of truth. Such deception will be similar to what happened to Pharaoh in Moses’ day. Pharaoh hardened his heart to Moses’ words. As a result, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 7.13-14, 22; 8.15, 19, 32; 9.7, 12, 34-35; 10.1, 20, 27; 11.10; 14.8; 1 Samuel 6.6) so that he would believe a lie; he continued to trust in the gods of Egypt.
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us (2 Thessalonians 2. 13-15).
Paul encouraged his readers that they were beloved by the Lord and secure in Him. Paul, as was his habit, emphasized his gospel, “the gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 24.20; 1 Corinthians 15.1-4)3 as opposed to the “gospel of the kingdom”4 and encouraged the Thessalonians to stand firm in what he had taught them and not be deceived by false teaching.
Conclusion
The Day of Christ is distinct from the Day of the Lord as daylight is to dark. The first is a time of great anticipation, joy, blessing, and reward. The second is a time of terror, wrath, dread, and woe. Paul taught the Thessalonians that the two days were different and not to be deceived by anyone who taught that the Church would go through the Tribulation or Day of the Lord. Paul taught Christ would remove the Church, the body of Christ, before that Day for we are not “appointed unto wrath” (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). Paul’s doctrine is as pertinent today as it was over 1,900 years ago. Christ’s second advent occurs in two phases: in the first phase the Lord returns for the Body of Christ; in the second phase the Lord returns to destroy his enemies. The Day of Christ is the Rapture, our blessed hope (Titus 2.13), the resurrection of the Church, in which we receive eternal bodies. This truth is for the Body of Christ alone and we should comfort one another and rejoice in it.
1 Paul wrote a false teacher is one who teaches the Church will go through the Tribulation.
2 The KJV reads “day of Christ.” The KJV is based largely upon the Majority text which along with the second corrector of D, read D2, (9th century) reads “Day of Christ” instead of “Day of the Lord.” Earlier evidence in all forms (Greek, versions, fathers) supports the text “Day of the Lord.” Such a reading also fits Paul’s theology for he taught that we are not “appointed unto wrath” (judgment, i.e., the Day of the Lord, cf. 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9) since the Body of Christ will be removed from the earth before the appearance of the Antichrist and God’s judgment. Paul’s usage of ἐνίστημι in 2 Thessalonians 2.2. Paul used this term in Romans 8.38; 1 Corinthians 3.22, 7.26; Galatians 1.4; 2 Thessalonians 2.2, 2 Timothy 3.1; Hebrews 9.9. In almost every instance he used it to mean things “present.” In the first two usages he distinguished it from future occurrences (οὔτε ἐνεστῶτα οὔτε μέλλοντα; εἴτε ἐνεστῶτα εἴτε μέλλοντα). Thus, a reading of “day in Christ” would read, “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is present.” Such a reading does not make sense. They knew the day of Christ (Rapture) had not taken place because they were still there. The question they had (and were being taught by false teachers) was whether they were experiencing the day of the Lord. Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to correct this false teaching. Thus, the correct reading is “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is present (or has come).” See the companion study on the Rapture and on 1 and 2 Thessalonians.
3 See the study, The Gospel.
4See the study, The Gospel of the Kingdom.
©2010 Don Samdahl. Anyone is free to reproduce this material and distribute it, but it may not be sold.
Updated March 16, 2015
What a truly fantastic blessing these sermons are!
KIt is interesting that you spend so much time differentiating between the ‘Day of Christ.’ and the ‘Day of the LORD,’ and even note that Paul is the only one who uses the phrase ‘Day of Christ.’ Yet you go to a new translation and change Paul’s words in this instance to the ‘Day of the LORD’ which changes the revelation of Antichrist from before the ‘rapture’ to merely before the judgement of God! If Paul believed Antichrist would only come AFTER the rapture he would likely have simply said so rather than even mentioning an event that would take place after those he was writing to were gone. The Thessalonians were worried they had missed the ‘gathering to Christ.’ It mazes me how the pre-trib folks have to ‘correct’ the KJV to promote their doctrine!
No translation is perfect and the KJV is no exception. The doctrine of inspiration is that the autographs were inspired not the translations. Virtually every manuscript reads Day of the Lord in 2 Thes. 2.2. The Day of the Lord is always associated with God’s wrath. Paul taught that the Church, i.e. the Body of Christ has nothing to do with God’s wrath and will NOT go through the Day of the Lord (cf. 1 Thes. 1.10, 5.9). The Thessalonians were not worried they had missed the Rapture. They were concerned they were in the Day of the Lord. False teachers had come to them teaching this error. Paul wrote them to put them back on the right road.
I also think there is a difference between the Great Affliction and the day of the Lord. Paul even told the Thessalonians that persecution and affliction (tribulation) was a just judging of God to deem them worthy of the kingdom of God. In Acts 14:22 Paul writes “through many afflictions must we be entering into the kingdom of God.”
Even so, in I Cor. 10:13, “for those who attain to the consummation” (Vs. 11), it is said that “no trial has taken you accept what is human. Now faithful is God, Who will not be leaving you to be tried aove what you re able…”
The context of I Cor. chpt. 10 is not speaking of common everyday trials but that which was the expectation of the Acts period believer. They knew better than most Christians today that they would live THROUGH, the times of Jacob’s trouble.
Persecution and martyrdom was a NT norm. Jesus Himself was afflicted of Satan for 4 days and nights in the wilderness and suffered the death of a Roman cross. Jesus said “in the world you WILL have afflictions but courage! I have conquered the world.”
Paul specifically told the Thessalonians they would not go through the Tribulation which is the wrath part of the Day of The Lord of which Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). Paul made a clear distinction between members of the body of Christ and the world that will be left following the Rapture of believers in 1 Thessalonians 5.1-11. No one experienced more persecution than Paul but he corrected the false teacher’s assertion that believers were in the Day of The Lord. Paul expected the Rapture to occur in his lifetime which would only make sense if members of the body of Christ do not experience the Tribulation.
While this is true that we will not go through tribulation from God’s wrath but if you look at 2 Thess 2:3 you will see that it says that apostasy (falling away) AND the man of sin will be revealed FIRST before Christ comes and we are raptured. This also agrees with what is written in Mark 13:14-27, Matthew 24:15-31, and Luke 21:20-28. We go through tribulation from the antichrist before Christ comes back. Christ does not return in two phases as you put it above. There is no biblical support for this. This view is made up to support pre-trib. If you look at the verses in their plain reading you will see that we do suffer persecution first. God’s wrath occurs after our rapture and starts in Revelation 8.
Ron,
The Tribulation lasts for 7 years. Paul declared believers would not experience it (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). Paul wrote of the Tribulation in 2 Thessalonians 2.3, the Day of the Lord, not the Rapture. The Rapture was a secret before Paul (1 Corinthians 15.51). No Biblical support exists for any other view than a pre-tribulation rapture.
2 Thess 2:3
What ” Apostasia” means & in context of The Thessalonian letters.
It not only has a negative connotation of a “falling away” from True Faith but ALSO is meant to convey “The Departure” of the Church, body of Christ, which restrains evil on earth through the mighty Holy Spirit!
You can research this on many good sites now….
What Apostasia can mean apart from a negative “falling away”….
Quote:
“””
apostasia is the feminine of apostasion
apostasion is from a derivative of aphistemi
aphistemi is used to mean “departure”. Translated “depart” 13 out of 16 times used in the New Testament. A couple examples:
Luke 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season. “””
Etc etc Apostasia can mean to “Stand before ” etc etc …
The Apostles of the Lord (All of them) clearly taught that to believe the Lord would come before the tribulation of 7 years for His Church meant that This Faith, belief Hope Sanctified the believer while on earth as they held fast the Hope of our bodies’ Adoption being completed. The Apostle John clearly taught this in 1 John 3:2-3
Be Blessed
Roberto
Roberto,
Thank you. Please see the article, 1 and 2 Thessalonians for a study and analysis of ἀποστασία. Grace and peace.
Im currently reading it & will continue to read it & study it further. Thank you! Amazing exegesis and have come to concur with the conclusions drawn from it. Its a massive Truth to be able to continue in obedience to the Lord & in the Godliness required. Before coming across this site I actually prayed to the Lord to keep showing me the True Gospel, the one that teaches a pre-tribulation rapture/catching away for the persevering believer. I believe the Apostle John hints at this Truth also in his first Epistle. The other Apostles were obviously in touch with Apostle Paul. The revelation given to Apostle Paul more than ever is for This generation at this time. He recieved it by direct revelation from the Lord Jesus (was not with the Lord in the flesh as the other Apostles were) for the Church at this time, that has to stand on the rock of revelation knowledge. Its amazing, most christians were taught this truth early on in the Pentecostal & charismatic moves, we let the truth go somewhat But the Lord & His Mighty Spirit is bringing right around again in a fuller manner.
Be Blessed
Roberto
So much Scripture is taken out of context because people do not read all that is before and after the verse as in 2 Thessalonians 2. If you read down to verses 7 & 8, Paul clearly talks about the rapture of the Church before the man of perdition is revealed. “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way (Holy Spirit) and then shall that wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming”. The Holy Spirit must be taken out of this world in order for the anti-christ to rise up which points to the rapture of the church as the church is the bride of Christ and the Holy Spirit our comforter. God will never take His Spirt from us and thus as the Holy Spirit is removed from this world, the church will also be removed (caught up). Paul’s teachings clearing teach the two comings of Christ – once in the clouds (rapture) and His second coming with the saints to conquer and set up His millennial Kingdom. Paul was definitely teaching a pre-tribulation rapture.
Richard,
Agree. God will remove the restraining power of the Holy Spirit and people will reject Christ for the Beast. God’s judgment begins with His leaving us to ourselves. This is Paul’s point in Romans 1.24, 26, 28. It is remarkable the lengths to which some will go to deny the pre-tribulational Rapture. All signs of the end. Grace and peace.
Hi Don. If the Holy Spirit is completely removed, how then shall anyone be saved during the tribulation?
Craig,
The Holy Spirit is removed from earth when believers are Raptured but He remains as He is omnipresent.
I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit will be totally abscent because God is never not present in some form but I believe that the mission of the Holy Spirit will be different in that maybe he will no longer indwell any new believers. Just a thought nothing I recall in scripture. God Bless. Maranatha
My question is to you, how do the saints come back with Christ in His second coming if we aren’t already with Him?
I am curious to know why folks assume that the ‘wrath’ is the tribulation and not hell. Why are we promised a blessing for reading the Book of Revelation if we will not be around when it happens?
David,
The wrath of God is one of the two great prophetic themes of Jewish theology. It was called the Day of the Lord. Revelation is addressed to Jews, not the Church. John wrote he was on Patmos on the Day of the Lord. We (the Church) are not promised a blessing. The context of is Jews and Gentiles who will endure the Tribulation. Hell is forensic justice, not wrath.
I noticed that very thing, Jim. 2 Thessalonians2:2 reads “the day of Christ” in the KJV. This one change calls into question the credibility of the entire article.
Robert,
Only if one believes the KJV is without error. If one does, he has much greater problems with the Scriptures. If you read the article, you read that “day of Christ” has little manuscript support. If this reading were correct, it would undermine Paul’s whole reason for writing 1 and 2 Thessalonians.
We can miss the revelation in the scriptures. Only the Holy Spirit can illumine our understanding & open up the scriptures. Theres no point in my opinion for the Church to remain during any part of the 7 years tribulation. The Holy Spirit is the One that leads the Church into all Truth in Christs physical absence(The Groom). Ephesians chpt 1 & Colossians chpts 1-3 teaches the extent of the revelation given to Apostle Paul. Its a Complete one. Did Christ leave anything out in the Cross? Therefore the Church as Christs Body on earth has as much Authority Positionally as Christ Himself. This position & reality revealed by Gods inspired Word is Antethesis with the Man of Sin – Antichrist. The Church is the Pillar The Salt & Light of the earth. This is the manner of the Love that Father has given us. Through the cross our identification with Christ is complete Even in Ressurection! Eph chpt 5; Pauls cry was to inderstand this & walk in the Spirit. The Spirit of this & in God’s Spirit. Christ said in John Chpt 14 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” where was He? In heaven. Earth dwellers will be left in the Tribulation to reap what they have sown-Flesh & blood cannot inherit heaven, But its where our citizenship is. God calls us to leave trusting in the Old Adamic order & body. He calls us to a New Hope in Christ for that Eternal Immortal Sinless body! As Apostle Paul said Romans 8:22-24
“23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.”””
Be blessed
Roberto
There is no seven year tribulation that is created by John Nelson Derby, Matthew 24:21 states that they will not be greater tribulation in there ever was until now, meaning during Jesus time after he was resurrected, and he prophesies within a generation, the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple, 70 A.D. now in verse verse 29 it clearly states after the tribulation THOSE DAYS is a clear indicator that the great tribulation was during the time of the apostles, and then tribulation after those days a future distinct everybody goes to tribulation in this world Christians, especially persecuted for serving Christ,
Tony,
Your argument is not with Darby but with Daniel and John. Both wrote of a seven-year period. The destruction of Jerusalem was great but certainly not the greatest tribulation in history. Was the sun darkened, the moon not give its light, the stars fell from heaven, and the powers of heaven shaken? No. When this occurs everyone will know it. Jesus declared that if those days were not shortened the human race “no flesh” would exist. What occurred in 70 A.D. did not come close to fulfilling this.
Take time to look up Floyd Nolen Jones. There is a website that has a large number of his audio recordings. Among them is a 6 lesson study of the Rapture. I say this because Dr. Jones is a Pre-Trib Rapture guy. He is also King James Only! The King James does not necessarily lead anyone to a Post -Trib view. By the way you can listen to these recordings for free!
Another anger brother in Christ. Please, ink with sincerity; why would any Christian be upset about the catching away?
The New Testament scriptures are literally full of references to the Harpazo.
A lack of understanding of the FULL COUNSEL of Gods Word by the majority of Christians seems to be the underlying reason for the inability to see it and understand it. When you understand Gods prophetic program in its fullness, you will see and understand that the BRIDE OF CHRIST CAN NOT BE HERE IN THE 7 YEAR TRUBULATION.
As chapter 12 of Daniel states;
3.Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
God told Daniel he would not understand…but in the END TIMES, WE, (those of us searching the word diligently) will have understanding AND understanding will be increased the closer we get.
This is a false teaching, for the AV is the KJV and the other versions are counterfeits (some more, some less). Examine yourselves in light of the gospel, for Jesus did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Many wolves in sheep’s clothing, so test the spirit.
Craig,
The KJV has bad translations and some errors. It is a translation. It is not God-breathed. The autographs were God-breathed. There are many variant readings in the manuscripts. They do not amount to much in terms of doctrine but to maintain the KJV is without error and other translations are counterfeits is to misunderstand how we got our Bible.
Don, how exactly did we get the Bible? My friend, a pastor of the Methodist church for 40 years said he studied how we got the bible and it convinced him that it could not have been dictated by God.
Craig,
The Scriptures declare that God’s word is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3.16). Peter declared men were “moved” by the Spirit (2 Peter 1.21). The original letters are called autographs. From them, thousands of copies were made. As in any human enterprise, mistakes were made, called textual variants. These variants are inconsequential. Due to the thousands of manuscripts, we are able to compare them and make educated guesses as to what the autograph read. It’s kind of like have a 1,000 piece puzzle with 1,020 pieces. We can never know with absolute certainty what the autographs read but we close enough so it doesn’t matter. As scholars discovered these manuscripts, they translated them into their own language. With the advent of the printing press, this work greatly accelerated. God did not “dictate” the Bible. He “moved” Jews, using their own personalities and language. The Bible is a divine work and a human work, even as Christ, the Word of God, is both divine and human.
Don,
Which translation below is correct? I believe the KJVer’s would have to say the KJV translation but how could the nations at Babel been numbered by the Children of Israel when Israel hadn’t yet been established. Is it a translation problem? Is the KJV wrong? Deut. 32:8
New Living Translation
When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court.
English Standard Version
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Berean Standard Bible
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He divided the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
King James Bible
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Joe,
The “children of Israel” is the reading of the Masoretic Text. According to the last part of verse 8, God set the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the “sons of Israel,” בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵֽל. The Septuagint (LXX) reads differently. The majority of witnesses read, “according to the number of the angels of God” (ἀγγέλων θεοῦ) and some witnesses read “sons of God” (υιῶν θεοῦ). The better reading favors ἀγγέλων θεοῦ or υιῶν θεοῦ rather than “sons of Israel.
The elements of seriously dividing the Word of God and recognizing the bigger picture is part of the ‘reward’ to the professed Christian. A consistent teaching of the rapture in Scripture suggests that the rapture is not for all professed Christians, but a reward for those who diligently seek Him. Thank you for the diligent use of the Scriptures in your studies and teaching.
Thank you. Paul commanded the Thessalonians to comfort one another with the truth of the Rapture (1 Thess. 4.18). It follows that if one refuses to believe God’s word about the Rapture one cannot obey God. If one disobeys God one will lose out in reward.
Brother, you have done a wonderful job of spelling out the differences between the day of Christ, and the day of the Lord: they are as different as night and day, pun intended. But I think you fail to understand that they are two sides of the same coin. When Jesus comes, for the believer, it will be the day of Christ, but for the unsaved, it will be the day of the Lord. Also, as you wrote about the day of the Lord, you suddenly changed it to mean, the great tribulation, those are two very different things as well. One, the day of the Lord, is God’s wrath upon the unsaved after the rapture, and the other, the great tribulation, will come from the Antichrist and the false prophet before the rapture, and is Satan’s wrath directed at the saints.
(2Thessalonians 2:1-5) Someone was preaching that the day of Christ was at hand (Like pretrib today) Paul wrote to correct this error, the program is very simple: first the man of sin — then the day of Christ. Paul expounded upon the meaning of the day of Christ in verse one. Jesus outlined the same chronology of end time events: first the abomination of desolation — then His coming in the clouds. We see this same outline repeated in Revelation. I recommend Marvin Rosenthal’s book, The Prewrath Rapture of the Church.
Danny,
The Tribulation is part of the Day of the Lord. The wrath of the Tribulation does not come solely from Satan. God also pours out His wrath (Psalm 2.5; Isaiah 13.6). The 2 Thessalonians 2.2 passage should read “day of the Lord” not “day of Christ.” This is what almost all manuscripts reveal. It is the only thing that makes sense in the context of what Paul had taught the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9. Jesus taught nothing about the day of Christ in His earthly ministry. He did not reveal the day of Christ, a.k.a. the Rapture until he revealed it to Paul.
hi Doctrine, why did the kjv trannslaters change it to the Day of Christ in 2 Thess. That has bugged me for a long time. Was there anything in the manuscripts that hinted to the day of Christ? Thanks .
Jeff,
The KJV translators had limited manuscripts compared to today. Also, I am not sure they understood the difference between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord. Below is the textual evidence.
2 Thessalonians 2:2:
TEXT: “the day of the Lord has come”
EVIDENCE: Aleph(א) A B D* F G L P Psi 0278 81 104 1241 1739 1881 lat syr cop
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NRSV ESV NASV NIV NEB REB TEV CSB
CERTAINTY: –
NOTES: “the day of Christ has come”
EVIDENCE: D2 K 630 Maj
TRANSLATIONS: KJV NKJV CSBn
I was taught that anytime the phrase “THAT DAY” is used in the new testament it is referring to the “day of the LORD” like in 2 Thess. 2:3….for THAT DAY shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed. I also learned that anytime the phrase “those days” is used in the new testament it refers to tribulation. I think the falling away in 2 Thess. 2:3 could mean what Jesus said in Luke 8:13 during time of temptation people fall away. But Jesus said He will keep us from the hour of temptation which will come upon the whole world. Rev.3:10
The revelation of the Rapture, part of the Day of Christ, was a NEW revelation the risen Lord gave to Paul. As such, Paul referred to it as “that day.” This was the day Paul looked forward to. It is our “blessed hope,” (Titus 2.13) the day we receive our resurrection bodies.
So interesting! If we look at the language of Matthew 13 and of the letters to the assemblies of Revelation. We find that the Gospel of the Kingdom has returned to the world. The age of grace there is over. The day of Christ marking the removal of the restrainer, but the beginning of specifically – tribulation for Israel – not yet begun… 7 years set aside for the Israel as spoken by Daniel (and other OT prophets).
I have some questions if you have the time.
First, I fully agree that the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are two different things as scripture clearly states. However, I dont agree that KJV manuscript of 2 Thess 2 “day of Christ” is the wrong translation. If it reads the day of Christ, then we are told that the rapture will not occur until after the falling away and the revealing of the antichrist (the first seal of tribulation). But, even if it should read “the day of the Lord” then it says the day, the era, of Gods wrath will come after the apostasy and the antichrist’s reveal. I 100% agree that we are not appointed to God’s wrath as His word so plainly tells us. What I am wondering is why you state the day of the Lord is the same as tribulation. Acts 2:20 says The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
The sun turning to darkness and the moon into blood occurs at the 6th seal during Daniels 70th week, or tribulation, and Acts 2:20 tells us the day of the Lord (the day of WRATH) comes after that, why do you believe we will be raptured before the onset of tribulation ?
Kelly,
In His ministry The Lord taught what the prophets had revealed. The prophets revealed a day of God’s wrath: the Day of The Lord. This is what Jesus taught in Matthew 24. The Lord called it the Tribulation and referred to the abomination of desolation of Daniel which Revelation records. Are you saying there is more than one day of God’s wrath over the earth? The Day of The Lord also seems to include the creation of the new heavens and new earth from what Peter wrote (2 Peter 3.10). So, it would seem that the Day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation and concludes with the new creation. We will be raptured before the Tribulation because Paul tells us we will be.
The KJV translation is correct. Look at the grammar and whole context.
I Thes. 2:2 “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
In other words:
Do not be troubled by the day of the Lord, because the day of Christ is coming before it.
“As that” means “because”. Because the day of Christ is coming, the day of the Lord will not come pass for the Church.
I Thes. 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
The day here is talking about the day of the Lord, not the day of Christ. Well, you say, that’s right, that’s why the KJV is wrong. Incorrect. The antecedent for the day in chapter 2, verse 3 comes from chapter 1, verses 7-10, NOT chapter 2, verse 2. Paul is making the distinction of the day of the Lord and day of the Christ here. So, in whole context and grammar, the KJV is correct.
To change the KJV “day of Christ” to “day of the Lord” would make the following grammar mistake, simplified:
Do not be troubled by the day of the Lord, because the day of Lord is coming before it. (modern versions)
Do not be troubled by the day of the Lord, because the day of Christ is coming before it. (KJV)
Samuel,
The Thessalonians’ problem was they were being taught that the Day of the Lord had come and they were experiencing it. Paul wrote to correct this error–to assure them the Day of the Lord had not come. He then went on to explain that what would occur before it came–(ἡ ἀποστασία) the Rapture. The KJV is wrong in this instance. See my study on 1 and 2 Thessalonians for more information.
You misunderstand what I’m saying. Do you understand what antecedents are in grammar and context?
If the antecedent for “day” was in chapter 2, then yes, it’s a mistranslation. But the antecedent is in chapter 1, not 2. Big difference.
In other words, when Paul is speaking about the day of Christ, he wasn’t referring to the description around it. It was out of the blue and not connected to the chapter. The chapter itself is talking about the day of the Lord.
Again, simplified:
(from chapter 1 to chapter 2) Do not be troubled by the day of the Lord, (chapter 2, verse 2)because the day of Christ is coming before it. (chapter 2, verse 3) The day of the Lord will not come until the man of sin, etc. (KJV)
(from chapter 1 to chapter 2) Do not be troubled by the day of the Lord, (chapter 2, verse 2)because the day of Lord is coming before it. (chapter 2, verse 3) The day of the Lord will not come until the man of sin, etc. (modern versions)
Samuel,
Here’s an accurate translation: 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (Rapture), 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the departure (Rapture) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Please read my article on 1 and 2 Thessalonians for more of the argument Paul made regarding the Day of the Lord and the Rapture.
That translation would be correct, if the context merely started from chapter 2. It actually starts from chapter 1.
To say that a day is at hand means that day comes before. To say that the day of the Lord is at hand means that it comes before. To say that the day of Christ is at hand means it comes before the day of the Lord.
Using your structure, here it is with full context:
1: 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (day of the Lord)
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (day of the Lord)
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (day of the Lord)
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (day of the Lord, He comes with His saints, meaning they raptured beforehand)
1:11-12 Same, but of no consequence to context.
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (day of the Lord), and by our gathering together unto him, (day of Christ)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, (comfort from the day of the Lord) as that (as that = because) the day of Christ (Rapture) is at hand (at hand = comes before). (Be comforted from the day of the Lord because the day of Christ is coming before it)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (day of the Lord)
Maybe this inforgraphic I cobbled up will explain better: http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/gmx0/IIThes_zpsa4bb0756.jpg
Samuel,
Paul taught the Thessalonians the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians. He wrote 2 Thessalonians to correct the false teaching that the difficulties the Thessalonians were experiencing was the Day of the Lord. The problem with the view you present is twofold. The first is that better manuscript evidence supports the reading “day of the Lord” than “day of Christ.” The second, more important point is Paul’s usage of ἐνίστημι in 2 Thessalonians 2.2. Paul used this term in Romans 8.38; 1 Corinthians 3.22, 7.26; Galatians 1.4; 2 Thessalonians 2.2, 2 Timothy 3.1; Hebrews 9.9. In almost every instance he used it to mean things “present.” In the first two usages he distinguished it from future occurrences (οὔτε ἐνεστῶτα οὔτε μέλλοντα; εἴτε ἐνεστῶτα εἴτε μέλλοντα). Thus, a reading of “day in Christ” would read, “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is present.” Such a reading does not make sense. They knew the day of Christ (Rapture) had not taken place because they were still there. The question they had (and were being taught by false teachers) was whether they were experiencing the day of the Lord. Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to correct this false teaching. Thus, the correct reading is “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is present (or has come).” Paul went on to assure them the day of the Lord would not come until the “departure” (Rapture) occurred and the Antichrist was revealed.
I believe the KJV is the perfectly preserved word of God in English, that the rapture precedes the time of Jacob’s trouble (Daniel’s 70th week, otherwise known as the tribulation period) and also that the KJV’s rendering of 2 Thessalonians 2 is consistent with these views. I believe Paul’s addressees feared that they had missed the rapture and were in the day of the LORD as a result. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Paul beseeches them not to be troubled by any letter or word sent by a false teacher or evil spirit saying that the day of Christ (the rapture) had happened, is happening, or is just about to happen (which could lead the receivers of the letter to believe they had missed it if the letter arrived to them after the proposed date of the rapture). In 2 Thessalonians 2:2, Paul tells them not to be deceived: for the day of the LORD (the day in which they would find themselves having missed the rapture and thrust into the day of the LORD) shall not come unless the falling away comes first and the identity of the Antichrist is revealed (they can rest assured they are not in the time of Jacob’s trouble so long as the falling away has not happened and the identity of the Antichrist has not been revealed). The “falling away” must be a clear sign which alerts the observer to the fact that he has missed the rapture and has entered the day of the LORD (the time of Jacob’s trouble). The phrase “falling away” may in fact refer to a much more blatant and extreme event of worldwide apostasy than the ongoing apostasy which we have been witnessing. It may be a direct RESULT of the rapture.
Fearless Philospher,
The problem with this view is that it fails to recognize how God has preserved His word. We have lots of copies of the autographs, which were God-breathed. The idea God has preserved a perfect English version for us is not Biblical or logical. The manuscript support for the reading “day of Christ” is extremely weak. When Paul used the work ἐνίστημι he used it for something that was present, not something, as translated in the KJV as “at hand.” Such a translation is an error which destroys the idea the KJV is without error. The problem Paul was addressing was that the Thessalonians were being told that the tribulations they were experiencing was the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord. This sense only makes sense if the text reads, “day of the Lord.” Also, the word ἀποστασία, translated by the KJV as “falling away” as in apostasy is also wrong. The word ἀποστασία should be translated “departure” and Paul meant the Rapture. He wished to give the Thessalonians a sure sign that they were not in the Day of the Lord and that the Antichrist had not yet come. All the earlier translations rendered ἀποστασία as “departure.” For some reason, the KJV translators changed it. Another error. In addition, whenever ἀποστασία is used without a qualifying prepositional phrase it means a physical departure. See my article on 1 and 2 Thessalonians.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
I should like to add to this discussion that in the minor prophets we see the hebrew word for “visit” appear often and repeatedly. In Zephaniah the word appears 5 times. The first 3 times it is translated “punish” (1.8,9,12) and the next 1 it changes and has a beneficent tone (2.7) before finishing in a reference to the first judgment visit in 3.7. Zephaniah is the prophet of global repentance and revival. His is the task of calling all nations to Yahweh, and is a primary text for teaching on the day of the Lord in OT theology. For the day of the Lord to be the ‘visitation’ of the Lord upon the earth, it means that in that day he will visit some for punishment, and some for beneficence. If the day of the Lord is going to have beneficial tones, it must not strictly be a day of judgment of evil. If we read the prophets correctly, we see that God is into restoring justice through alignment to His “judgment.” Hence, a day of judgment is not just punishing, but a restoring of right. It need not be one day for rewarding, and one day for punishing, as we see in Zephaniah. Indeed, one purpose of the day is to restore the lost fortunes of God’s people that were taken unjustly.
So, I’m not sure it is a lock tight case that there be such a distinction in the vernacular. Besides, day of the Lord, day of the Lord Jesus Christ, and day of Christ are extremely overlapping. On terminology alone it doesn’t seem to be a distinction.
Just some thoughts…
Matt,
Thank you. Technically, the Day of the Lord in the prophets includes God’s wrath, the kingdom, and establishment of the new heavens and earth. But in most cases, it usually means God’s wrath. Offtimes, large swaths of time are include in one or two verses with regard to prophecy, For example, Isaiah 61.1-2, references the 1st advent, the Tribulation, and the Kingdom. Paul’s use of the Day of Christ, however, includes no hint of wrath whereas the Day of the Lord is replete with it–even when it also includes blessing–kingdom, new heavens/earth.
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Thank you so much for all of the hard work you have obviously poured into this study. You have no idea what a tremendous blessing this is to me! You have addressed many points that I have been struggling with. May God richly bless you for your dedication to His word. I look forward to exploring your other topics. Thank you again!
Thank YOU!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Concerning this church Paul wrote: “We ourselves boast of you among the other churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure” (2 Thessalonians 1:4). The patience and faith of these saints was manifested through the persecutions and tribulations which they had endured, Paul boasted of them among the other churches.
Jesus was adamant that no one except the Father knows the day and hour of His return (Matthew 24:36). He taught that every generation of the church should expect and be watching for the signs that will signal His soon return (Mark 13:28-37). According to the passage above someone claimed to have gotten a letter from Paul stating that the day of Christ was at hand. Paul reminded them that the man of sin must first be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5). Paul’s chronology agrees with what the Lord outlined in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew chapter 24). Jesus forewarned the disciples about the coming of the man of sin (Matthew 24:15-25) He placed the abomination of desolation before the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect (Matthew 24:15-31). Concerning this chronology, Paul wrote, “Let no man deceive you by any means.” Many Bible teachers today believe that the day of Christ is imminent; yet when dealing with this very issue Paul wrote: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. The text goes on to explain how the man of sin will be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:4). Both the (KJV) and the (NKJV) refer to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him as the day of Christ. For a more comprehensive understanding of that day compare the following verses (1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:2).
Danny,
Two comings are in view in 2 Thessalonians 2.1-2. The first is the Rapture. The second is the Lord’s return for Israel and the nations. The “falling away” is better translated “departure” and refers to the Rapture. See my article 1 and 2 Thessalonians for commentary on this. The Lord will come for His Church before the Antichrist appears. Jesus taught His return for Israel in His earthly ministry. The Rapture is not taught in the gospels or by anyone other than Paul. Paul declared this truth was a secret (1 Corinthians 15.51). The better reading in 1 Thessalonians 2.2 is “the day of the Lord.” The “day of Christ” has little manuscript support.
I checked Strong’s as well as Blue Letter Bible and the Greek shows very clearly that ‘day of Christ’ would be the correct rendering. What is the manuscript support for ‘day of the Lord’?
I would love to have that so I can support the pre-trib position wholeheartedly.
Mark,
The majority text (on which the KJV is based) reads “day of Christ.” All other translations read “day of the Lord.” Better manuscript evidence supports “day of the Lord.” See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament#Second_Epistle_to_the_Thessalonians and see footnote #2 of my article. As pointed out in the article, a vast difference exists between the “day of Christ” and the “day of the Lord.” The reading “day of Christ” makes no sense. The Thessalonians were worried that somehow the day of the Lord had come upon them because of persecution. Some were teaching this which is why Paul wrote to correct this error (that was the main purpose of the letter). The central problem for a non-pre-trib view is not this verse but reading the gospels into Paul and Paul into the gospels. Paul explicitly wrote the Rapture was a secret (1 Corinthians 15.51). It is not found in the gospels or in any writings other than Paul’s. Jesus never taught it in His earthly ministry and the Twelve had no knowledge of it.
Bingo i got it or i should say you said it, I think the translators were putting (reading) the gospels into Paul’s writings. I think that’s why Church of England interpreters i am sure they were biased. So they put Day of Christ instead the Day of the Lord. I think its a KJV error. Its easy to do if you are not Pauline, Everything is seen through the glasses of the 4 gospels. But what nags me is , were they the words in their manuscripts or were they from religious bias that they were translated to (the Day of Christ)? I think i found the answer that i was looking for a long time. Thanks again
Thanks for your response. You wrote, “The Day of Christ is the Rapture, our blessed hope (Titus 2.13), the resurrection of the Church, in which we receive eternal bodies. This truth is for the Body of Christ alone and we should comfort one another and rejoice in it.”
You have done an excellent job showing that the day of Christ is the rapture, but in (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5) Paul clearly wrote, “For that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.” You said, “The better reading in 1 Thessalonians 2.2 is “the day of the Lord,” but doesn’t Paul teach (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9) that the sons of light will escape by rapture the day of the Lord’s wrath? In other words the day of Christ and the day of the Lord will arrive or begin on the same day, one in the clouds, and the other on the earth. The day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven.
Danny,
Thank you. We’re given no information as to how soon the Day of the Lord will come after the Rapture. It may come immediately but it may be much longer. See my article, When Will the Lord Return? for more on this subject. The Church, the body of Christ, is removed before the Tribulation but how many years transpire before the appearance of the Antichrist is not known. The Lord cannot return for Israel and the nations until the 7 years have passed.
Thanks for your kindness and patience. In 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 doesn’t Paul imply that the brethren are around to see this day, they’re told to watch for it that it might not come upon them like a thief in the night? If not, why the admonition to watch?
Danny,
Paul thought the Rapture would come in his lifetime. He most likely thought the rest of the prophetic events would follow quickly also. One thing one learns in studying the Scriptures is that God’s timing is His most closely guarded secret. I explore this point in my latest article, How “Near” is the Day of the Lord? We have no specifics about how quickly these events will unfold. We see signs of the Day of the Lord today but how far away the Lord’s return is unknown (Matthew 24.36-39).
Don, I also have wondered the very thing that Danny is asking. Could you please reread his question? Like he says, “why the warning?”
GraceReceiver,
Paul wrote the Thessalonians that they had nothing to fear from the Day of the Lord; they would not experience it (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). I do not think what he wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5.4-6 is so much a warning as a contrast and an encouragement. He wrote the Day of the Lord would take unbelievers by surprise (vv. 2-3) but that it would not overtake believers for we are not in darkness. Because of this, we should live godly lives (v. 8). In other words, the watchfulness should be that of watchfulness in terms of godly living, not in anticipation of the Day of the Lord. The word Paul used for “watch” is γρηγορέω. Note how Paul used this word elsewhere: 1 Corinthians 16.13; Colossians 4.2; 1 Thessalonians 5.6, 10.
Don, as to how close we are to the coming of the day of the Lord, I think the Lord Himself gave us that information in Matthew chapter 24. Joel 2:30-31 gives us the sign that will signal that the day of the Lord has come. Matthew 24:29-31 locates the fulfillment of that sign, it immediately follows the great tribulation, the coming of the day of the Lord.
Jesus said that when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors (Matt. 24:33) the it here would refer to the coming of that great and terrible day of the Lords wrath. The day of the Lord follows the great tribulation.
Danny,
The Day of the Lord encompasses the wrath of God (Tribulation), return of Christ, Millennial kingdom, and creation of the new heavens and new earth. Most of the time it refers to God’s wrath upon the earth. The clearest sign of the beginning of the Day of the Lord will be the Rapture. The Scofield Reference Bible contains this note on the Day of the Lord: The Day of the LORD (Jehovah), Summary: The Day of the LORD is that period of time when God openly intervenes in the affairs of men–in judgment and in blessing. See Joel 1:15, note. It will begin with the translation of the Church and will terminate with the cleansing of the heavens and the earth preparatory to the bringing into being of the new heavens and the new earth. The order of events appears to be: (1) the rapture of the Church just preceding the beginning of the Day of the LORD (I Th. 4:13-17); (2) the fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:27), the latter half of which is the great tribulation (Mt. 24:21; see Rev. 7:14, note; (3) the return of the Lord in glory to establish the millennial kingdom (Mt. 24:29-30); (4) the destruction of the beast, the false prophet, and their armies, which is the “great and terrible” aspect of the day. (Rev. 19:11-21); (5) the judgment of individual Gentiles according to their treatment of his brethren, the Jewish people (Zech. 14:1-9; Mt. 25:31-46) and the judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:3438); (6) the millennial reign of Christ on earth (Rev. 20:4-6); (7) the satanic revolt and its judgment (Rev. 20:7-10), (8) the resurrection and final judgment of the wicked (Rev. 20:11-15); (9) the destruction of the present earth and heaven by fire preparatory for the future “day of God” (2 Pet. 3:10-12); and (10) the creation of the new heavens and the new earth (Isa. 65:17-19; 66.22; 2 Pet. 3-.13; Rev. 21:1).
Don,
When comparing the day of the Lord, and the day of Christ, you very aptly explained, in this article, that the day of the Lord has to do with God’s wrath, while the day of Christ is unique with Paul and relates to the church and the rapture. My understanding is that Scofield has been credited with popularizing the pretrib rapture, through the use of his very popular study Bible. And as you know, He has a note in that study Bible that changes the day of Christ, to the day of the Lord at 2 Thessalonians 2:2. If Scofield was mistaken, would that change Paul’s chronology, in your opinion?
Danny,
The reason Scofield changed the KJV reading was because almost all the manuscript support is for the Day of the Lord reading. The evidence for the Day of Christ is extremely weak. this is not a theological issue; it is a textual issue.
Don,
I too espouse pre-trib theology, but the wording in 2 Thessalonians 2 is difficult to reconcile. Specifically, with Paul’s reference to “the falling away” as translated by the KJV and other translations. The majority of other translations I’ve reference seem to point to the same idea of Apostasy, and use other words as revolt and rebellion to describe that event. In one of your replies you substitute the word “departure” instead, and suggest it refers to the rapture. Can you tell me or explain how you arrive at the conclusion and how do reconcile what appears to be a dual meaning?
Ivan,
Please see what I wrote in the article 1 and 2 Thessalonians for a fuller explanation.
Don,
I have not had an opportunity to read this article yet, but I believe I know where you are going. I’ve been reading other material, which support your view on this inpretation. They cite the Scott and Liddle Greek Lexicon for a more exhaustive definition in making their case. Would there be other free online Greek Lexicons with the same information, as the ones I come across with only make reference to either apostasy, rebellion and revolt?
I have to admit, this passage of scripture was a problem for me to reconcile with my pre-trib view, but thanks to you and others, my position has become more solid.
On a personal note, I believe that the pre-trib view is further established by considering that Christ will come back for a Glorious church, without spot or wrinkle. To accept a Mid-trib, or Post-trib rapture, is tantamount to claiming that Christ will come back for a backsliden apostate church. If anything, that should seal the coffin on such erroneous and misleading positions.
Ivan,
The lexicons won’t help in this case. The first order in determining the meaning of a word is to see how a particular author, in this case, Paul, used the word. Then one sees how others have used the word, contemporaries, and then non-contemporaries. If you read the section Examination of Ἀποστασία you will get an understanding of the issues.
Don,
Another problem for Pre-trib is Mathew 24. It clearly identified the “elect” as those that will go through this period in question. Proponents of Mid – Trib view make a very compelling argument for why this referece means “believers”, not Jews. How do you counter or refute that?
Narnian,
Jesus and the Twelve had no ministry to Gentiles (Matthew 10.5-6). Matthew 24.1, 3 states He addressed His disciples–Jews–specifically the Twelve–who had just come from the Temple. Paul explicitly taught believers would not experience the Tribulation–1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9. Everything Jesus taught in the Gospels concerned Israel (Romans 15.8). All “proofs” of the Mid-Trib view come from the Gospels. Nothing in the Gospels is Church doctrine. Therefore, the Mid-Trib view is without Scriptural support.
haha nothing in the Gospels is church doctrine?!?!?! so what about church discipline in Matt. 18, or the Lord’s Supper? how about the crucifixion and the resurrection, recorded in all four Gospels? or the Great Commission? shall I go on?
Aaron,
Let me ask you, are you a Jew or a Gentile? Read Matthew 18. If you sin and refuse to repent, the Lord said to treat such a one as a Gentile. Since 99% of the Church is Gentile, do you think He was speaking of the Church, the body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? As for the crucifixion and resurrection, yes, they are recorded in the gospels. But for what purpose? Did Peter preach Christ’s death and resurrection for salvation? Hardly. Peter preached Christ’s crucifixion as a sin Jews had to repent of. And as for resurrection, what was its signifcance? It was that Christ could return and reign as King if the Jews repented. Read Acts 2-3. Christ’s death and resurrection were part of the Old Testament, prophetic program. The Great Commission was given to Israel. Read whom Jesus addressed in Matthew 28. Do you find he addressed Gentiles? And did the Twelve obey it? Do you ever find the them having a ministry to Gentiles? Read your Bible rather than depend on tradition.
Don,
I may have gained a little clarification on that phrase, “The day of Christ” as Paul used it. I should mention up front that I changed from the pretrib position to the prewrath after studying Rosenthal’s book, “The Prewrath Rapture of the Church” back in 1991.
As you well know, the expression, “The day of the Lord’ comes from the Old Testament and was used numerous times when referring to the coming of the Lord to judge the nations. In the Old Testament it’s described as a day of wrath, and a day of darkness, nothing positive said about it.
In the New Testament, in his letters to the churches, Paul at times would add the name of Jesus Christ to that expression making it, “The day of our Lord Jesus Christ,” or sometimes just, “the day of Christ.” Prior to Christ’s incarnation, His name of “Jesus” had not yet been revealed. Therefore what is described in the Old Testament as a day of wrath and darkness for those in darkness, becomes a day of rejoicing for the saints (1Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 2:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). This is based upon the prewrath position that the church will be raptured to meet the Lord on that day. “What a day of rejoicing that will be!” This does not mean that the day of God’s wrath has been cancelled, it will still be fulfilled.
Where have I gone wrong?
Danny,
The Day of Christ and the Rapture are synonymous. The Tribulation lasts for 7 years according to Daniel 9. The last 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24.21) and God’s judgments will intensify during that period. Jeremiah 30.7 wrote this was the time of Jacob’s trouble. After God removes the Church His timetable for Israel restarts. God’s prophetic program relates to Israel (the Church was unrevealed in it). As such, the Church has no prophecy–except the Rapture.
Thanks for the reply, and your patience. I agree that the day of Christ and the rapture are synonymous, but I also think that the day of the Lord, and the day of Christ, are synonymous: it depends upon the group you’re addressing; for the church, it will be the day of Christ, for those in darkness, it will be the day of the Lord (1Corinthians 1:7-8, 1Thessalonians 5:1-9).
I don’t find anywhere in scripture where it says that the tribulation will last for seven years, I do find that the great tribulation will begin at the mid-point and will continue until the Lord comes immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29).
I believe, based upon Joel’s sign for the coming of the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) that Matthew 24:29-31 is describing the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, the coming of the day of the Lord’s wrath. Therefore Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of the coming of the day of the Lord, the day of Christ, and the day of the rapture. He comes in the clouds, with the sound of a trumpet, the elect are gathered. I see many similarities between Matthew 24:29-31 and 1Thessalonians 4:16-17. If true, this would mean that Jesus was describing the signs that will culminate in the rapture, not the Revelation 19 coming to destroy the beast and establish His kingdom reign. Jesus taught beginning at verse (32) that the signs He listed when fulfilled would signal that His coming is near, at the doors, but that no one will know the day and hour, just that it is near. I don’t believe He was speaking of some other coming at this point.
Danny,
The problem is that the Rapture was a secret (1 Corinthians 15.51). Paul explicitly taught the Thessalonians they would not experience the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). The Rapture was unknown, unrevealed until the risen Lord revealed it to Paul. Everything in the gospels is focused upon Israel and the nations, not the Church. Jesus came to present Himself as King to the nation of Israel and fulfill the OT promises (Romans 15.8). Jesus had no ministry to Gentiles and the Church was unknown as Paul wrote in Ephesians 3.1-7. You might want to take a look at my article, Paul’s “Mystery”. Nothing the Lord taught in Matthew 24 concerns the Church, the body of Christ. It will not be present on the earth.
Don,
[Mat 28:19-20 KJV] 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
[Mat 24:13-14 KJV] 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[Mat 24:3 KJV] 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
In each of the verses above Jesus refers to the end, are there multiple ends, or do they all refer to the same end? Jesus assures the disciples that He will be with them, unto the end of the world. The end in Jesus’s discourse is His coming in the clouds immediately after the tribulation. Jesus said, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” In what sense will they be saved?
[Rom 8:23 KJV] 23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Is Paul referring to the rapture?
[Luk 21:27-28 KJV] 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Is Jesus speaking to Israel or the Church at this point?
Danny,
Everything the Lord revealed in the gospels concerned Israel (and the nations) prophetic program. God had revealed that program to the prophets, primarily in the context of the Day of the Lord. The end the Lord referred to in Matthew 24 was His return for Israel. He cannot return for them until they repent (Matthew 23.37-39). When they do, Paul declared “all Israel” will be saved (Romans 11.26). That is, ever Jew alive at that point. No Church, body of Christ, doctrine is in the Gospels. For Paul, the return of Christ was the Rapture (unless explicitly stated as in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Don,
I saw an article heading, and advertisement of sorts, on one of the news sites. The Author, Joel Richardson, claims that he is about to destroy the long held beliefs on the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory with his new book. What evidence could he present that might give any weight to his arguments? Second, are you and other Pre-trib Rapture Theologians ready to respond and refute those claims? We are seeing alot of falst doctrines enter the church, so I hope that you will responde with a vengence.
Narnian,
All these attacks mix God’s program for Israel with God’s program for the Church. God revealed the Pre-Tribulational Rapture to Paul alone and all doctrine about the Rapture must come from Paul. Attacks on the PTR are easily defeated when one understands this.
Don,
Would you explain 24:40-41 as it sounds like rapture yet it is in the day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:36-41 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For [y]the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not [z]understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one [aa]will be taken and one [ab]will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the [ac]mill; one [ad]will be taken and one [ae]will be left.
Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck,
The ones taken are taken to judgment; the ones left go into the kingdom. See Matthew 25.31-46 for the Lord’s further explanation of this.
Thanks — good to go!
my Dad was a believer and died years ago. is he asleep until the dead in Christ are raised and given spiritual bodies…. Or is he with God now, awaiting his spiritual body?.?
Theresa,
Paul used the word “sleep” euphemistically for death. The dead are conscious (see Luke 16). We have little information about this but apparently the rich many had some sort of body to experience thirst. Your Dad’s with the Lord awaiting his new, immortal body.
Good morning. I’ve been perusing various forums and ran across your statement here that, after one dies, one is,”…with the Lord awaiting [one’s] new, immortal body.” That doesn’t seem to me to be what the Bible teaches about death. Just a few (of many) passages:
Eccl. 9:5-6 “…the dead know nothing.”
Job 3:11-13 “Why didn’t I die at birth…I could be resting in peace
right now…asleep, feeling no pain.”
I Cor. 15:20 ‘…for those who have died…are in their graves.”
I Thess. 4:13 “…and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
John 5:21 “…they will be GIVEN immortality.”
Luke 8:52 “She is sleeping.”
John 5:28 “The dead will come alive.”
John 11:11 “Lazarus sleeps.”
I’m sure you know the argument, but I’d like to heart your thoughts on the state of the dead (without reference to Luke 16, which most NT scholars argue ought not to be used for developing doctrine). It seems the overwhelming biblical view is that when one dies, one goes to the grave and remains in a dreamless, unconscious state until the Second Coming. Then, in the twinkling of an eye, people (with their new bodies) will be reunited with the Lord. So where isTheresa’s dad? He’s sleeping, waiting for the Lord to return. And then “…the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess. 4:13).
I’m sure you know both sides of the argument, but your position does not seem to coincide with what the Bible teaches.
John 5:28 “The time is coming when those who have died will hear his voice and be raised to immortality.”
It’s comforting to think that our disembodied “soul” goes to be with God minutes after death, but I don’t see that taught in the Bible.
Do you have other scriptural support for your position other than Luke 16?
Thank you.
Roger,
Paul used “sleep” euphemistically for death (cf. 1 Corinthians 11.30). In 2 Corinthians 5.8, Paul wrote when one dies one is πρὸς τὸν κύριον. The Bible is unclear as to details but I think soul and spirit are conscious in the presence of the Lord. For example, angels are spiritual being but have some kind of “body.” I find no reason not to use Luke 16 to support this. Even if it was a parable, it reveals the truth of consciousness after death.
Thanks you for your response. Still, I was hoping you would comment on the verses I provided that make up the core of the argument against the position that our disembodied “souls” go immediately to heaven upon death (waiting for our glorified bodies when the Lord returns??) I’ve never heard a sustainable biblical argument for your position. Yes, Paul says that upon death we are “with the Lord.” But his concept dovetails nicely with what the Bible teaches. It’s like, when one falls asleep one’s next conscious moment is when one wakes up; “In the twinkling of an eye.”
I’m really interested in knowing about what the Bible says about what happens when one dies, especially in light of your position and the Bible passages I provided. Where is the biblical support for what you believe?
Thanks again for reading my post(s).
Roger,
Little evidence is revealed on this subject by the Scriptures (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Luke 16, Lazarus and the rich man, gives evidence of awareness and activity more than “sleep.” In any case, I think time will mean something entirely different than how we experience it now. Like the Pevensie children in Narnia, only a few minutes pass in their lives on earth while they experience a lifetime in Narnia.
I agree with you that time will most certainly be different in the afterlife. Still, you wrote, “Little evidence is revealed on this subject by the Scriptures.” I provided a number of passages about the state of the dead in my last post that make it clear what happens. My question is: How do you respond to those passages? The Bible seems quite clear that the dead remain in their graves until the second coming, wouldn’t you agree?
Roger,
In the Ecclesiastes 9.5-6 passage, I think Solomon means the dead no longer participate in life on earth (see v. 6). In John 11, Jesus stated Lazarus slept. His disciples took Him literally but told them He meant Lazarus was dead (John 11.14). Paul taught our bodies lie in the grave but the soul and spirit of the believer goes to be with the Lord at the moment of death (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23).
If I could humbly add something to support doctrines’ belief that the dead in Christ are in a state of consciousness, please see Revelation 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
1st of all I really appreciate your teachings. One thing for you consideration, the book of Daniel seems to indicate Micheal the Archangel is the restrainer not The Holy Spirit spoken of in Thessalonians.
Ralph,
Thank you. Michael has a specially commissioned role of service with regard to aiding and protecting Israel. This is why he is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation (which deals primarily with Israel, and is essentially an OT book). The Holy Spirit restrains the advent of the Beast through His indwelling of believers (Church).
I have been praying and seeking the Lord’s wisdom regarding the Rapture (day of Christ) and the wrath of God (day of the Lord). From studying God’s word and seeking His knowledge, I believe He is showing me that both events happen simultaneously. As in the days of Noah and Lot. God took them out and then brought destruction on unbelievers. (Matthew 24:38-39 & Luke 17:27-30) They occurred one after the other. Then begins 7yrs of tribulation (time of Jacobs trouble Jer 30:6&7) The 1st 3 1/2 yrs are birth pangs before the great tribulation that begins in the last 3 1/2yrs. After the end of this time the 2nd coming of Christ will happen.
Chris,
How can they happen at the same time? The Day of Christ is the Rapture and occurs instantaneously. The Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, lasts 7 years. The Rapture was a secret. No one knew anything about it until God revealed it to Paul. So nothing in the OT or Gospels can shed any light on it.
Hi Chris, I hope you dont mind me also answering you.
Remember there was a 7 day WAITING period after Noah entered the Ark and THEN the rain began. (2 Peter 3:8) But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. We can conjecture all we want but we will not definately know when. We must live as though its tonight.
Many Christians have turned away from the rapture believing we will go through the tribulation. Then sadly they did not believe or understand the cross.
Christ shed his blood for us. Why would we need to shed our blood in the 7 year tribulation which will happen to those who turn to the Lord. They had a chance to believe during the age of Grace but they did not. God in his mercy gives the world another chance during the 7 years but its no longer Grace. Millions will come to believe but they will be killed for their faith.
The cross is being forgotten today and thats how the world is going. In days past the cross was always spoken of but today its hardly ever spoken of in the church.
Also recall that the church (Jewish Congregation) in Revelation is told this.“Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10)
Notice that Jesus also tells them that they will suffer persecution ten days. This exact prophesy no doubt happened to many at Smyrna, but the scriptures are for all times, and often we see history repeated in many forms. In fact the Bible in a number of places uses the thought of “days” in type to denote much more than a day, but rather a year, or many years, or even to represent during the life of an individual such as “in the days of king…”, or to represent a time of a condition “in the day that…”, etc.:
“After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.” (Numbers 14:34)
“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.” (Psalms 90:4)
I love the topic of end times but we can sometimes run around in circles trying to figure out what the bible means when in fact the Book Of Revelation is meant for the end time Jews and they will understand. Its their road map and was never meant for us to understand though we must read it.
I personally believe we will be raptured many years before the start of the tribulation allowing the world to move forward further into sin and darkness till the return of Jesus. I also dont believe millions and millions upon millions of people will be raptured. It will be a remnant of us. As time moves on more and more deceived believers will fall further into deception. We as a couple see it in our own life and its happening now in leaps of months not years.
Thank you and take care.
Your argument for a strictly Jewish 70th week is without merit and impossible to argue against. In fact, I have not heard of this eschatology in the mainstream thoughts of church history. Your premise is that the cross sets the church apart from the tribulation? This is contrary to the uniform doctrine of Paul in Phil 3. 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.” The greatest reward one could receive is to die for Christ. Rev. 7:14. It is an eternal honor for those who go through the tribulation. Rev 20:4-5 indicates an early resurrection for those who have died for their faith, and they will work for and in the Lord’s kingdom on earth. If this is true, to go through the tribulation is the highest honor and reward. There seems to be an indication that the rest of us will stay in paradise until the 1000 year reign is over… WE have got it upside down. I am afraid your theology and soteriology is representative of the masses. The idea that the finished work of Christ excludes us from tribulation…I hope you are right. Because, the state of so many who believe like you will be easily influenced to become embittered if you are wrong.
BP,
Read the next verse, Philippians 3.11. Paul used the word ἐξανάστασις, “out resurrection” which he only used here. That is the Rapture. Paul hoped he would experience that event. Paul certainly suffered and many believers have suffered for Christ throughout history. But God will remove His Church before the Tribulation because the Tribulation and the book of Revelation is Jewish ground. No Church, body of Christ, language is found in Revelation. The Church is not present. During this period God has returned to His prophetic program of dealing with Israel and the nations. The doctrine of the Rapture was the first doctrine Paul taught after the gospel. Read my article, 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Those were Paul’s first letters and were devoted to the doctrine of the pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Rapture is as certain a truth as Christ having died for our sins. It true and essential Christianity.
Thanks for your perspective. I was a bit surprised, though, when you wrote, “In the Ecclesiastes 9.5-6 passage, I think Solomon means the dead no longer participate in life on earth (see v. 6). I don’t recall you replying to a post by referring to what you “think” before. You’re usually respond with, well, with doctrine. Just wondering what you meant by that.
On the issue at hand (the intermediate state of the dead), I’m finding that that proponents of the two major arguments (conscious or unconscious) have good arguments backing them up, so it’s no real use raising it again. I will note, though, that I personally find the argument relating to the dead “sleeping” to be the more compelling argument. But, as you imply, the Bible is not clear on the issue, and it’s more of a fun topic than anything else, wouldn’t you agree?
A compliment to this web site: many of the topics and discussions on it that are discussed and argued about remind me of the discussions that (we) students would have at Bible College. It certainly got heated and voices were raised at times, but then it was time for flag football and all was forgotten…
Roger,
Well, ok. Solomon is writing about man’s life on earth. I would argue that while this is not an essential doctrine, the Scriptures give evidence that life after death is more than “sleeping.” Even if Luke 16 is a parable it teaches the dead are conscious and experience joy or suffering.
Thank you. Sorry, just one last post on the subject (no promises, though :)
There are a few places in the Bible where it seems to say that “when absent from the body, then present with the Lord.” What concerns me is the overwhelming amount of passages that say otherwise (e.g. the passages I referred to in an earlier post). Do you have it in mind when you pray and do your research that at no cost do you want your theology to dictate your understanding? That’s not to be taken as a critique, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on the issue.
Thank you.
Roger,
I think I addressed the passages you sent. Many seeming contradictions exist in the Bible. One has to be careful to interpret them according to context. I approach the Scriptures inductively. Exegesis leads to theology not vice versa.
A couple of quick points: as to the state of the dead since the cross:#1. the thief on the cross was promised he would be with Christ in Paradise that very day he died.
#2. 1 Thess. 4:14 has the “dead” believers coming with Christ in the Rapture and their BODIES raised first, before the transformation of the living saints. (14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that “God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him”) also:
(2 Corinthians 5:6: So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.)
#3. (different subject) The “falling away”, a supposed world-wide apostasy, is really the great snatching away of the church. It makes far more sense since waiting for a great apostasy would constitute a sign before the event which truly has no signs. Besides, how would one or all Christians know apostasy had reached critical mass and it would then be ok to anticipate the Rapture?
And such a view would certainly dampen down the joy of the anticipated Rapture! Also, the church is the vehicle God the Holy Spirit is presently using to, among other things, restrain the evil in the world. In fact, the Holy Spirit will still be on earth after the Rapture but evil will be allowed to manifest itself in a way it could not if the church were still here.
#4. Some suppose only A1 Christians will make the Heavenly trip but such is not the case. Otherwise, the body of Christ would be truncated…can’t be. We are all one body, walking in the Spirit or controlled by the flesh. The Judgment seat of Christ will deal with the issue of victory and failure. Enoch was a Godly man who was taken up by the Lord Before the flood. Lot was a righteous man who was dragged out of Sodom before the fire and brimstone. These contrasting qualities of spiritual life have a common denominator: the Lord knows those who are His….even when no one else does. Great teaching in this article! Thank you, Doctrine!
Love the work you have done here. Just hoping you can clarify something for me, was the rapture hidden because God hadn’t allowed us to see it, so we were blinded to it until Paul had his scales removed off his eyes, or are there hints on the rapture but it would be impossible for us to have know what it eluded to if Paul hadn’t revealed this secrete or is there no references at all except Paul teachings.
Even Peter says it’s hard to understand:
and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul–according to the wisdom given to him–did write to you, as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16
Is Matthew 24 infact a reference to a rapture, that would never be understood until Paul? Those that did not get taken, would be left to experience the Fires of Hell or the Tribulation depending on how long they lived. Also the Wheat harvest mentioned is not the winepress of Gods wrath as referenced in Revelation and many OT prophecy of Tribulation, is this harvest in fact the Church, allowing the Barley Harvest to be the fruit fruits, (Christ)? I’ve read so much junk on this matter thanks to Perry Stone fans filling the Internet.
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Matthew 24:40-42 KJV
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. Matthew 13:24-26, 28-30, 34-35, 37-40 KJV
To be honest this Matthew 24 passage is not good at all, considering it usually a main rapture text I hear used for a rapture, it’s doesn’t link at all. Just answered my own question I think on that verse. I Believe the Matthew 13 is Pauls secrete rapture whilst still hidden, what do you take of it?
Luke,
Thank you. The Rapture was a secret until Paul. Nothing, no hint, no anything was present before then. Paul revealed it to the Thessalonians (1st doctrine he taught after the gospel) and to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 15.51-52). Everything in the gospels is Old Testament. See Romans 15.8. Jesus came to fulfill God’s prophetic program for Israel. Nothing was known of the Church and consequently the Rapture for the Rapture only concerns the Church, the body of Christ. The Matthew 24 passage concerns those taken to judgment and those who will go into the kingdom.
Thankyou for the answer, I figured you would say what you did, I agree totally.
I just wanted to ask, in light of the mystery of the Church, not being mentioned in Scripture except Pauls writings and other New Testament writings after the Church was formed like Revelations 2 and 3.
Question 1) How should Christians follow and apply Old Testament correctly and even the Gospels and press Church New Testament. Scripture is expired by God so still profitable and still reveal Gods character and nature.
For example: I have heard preachers say forgive 7×70 means forgive forever (sound advice I believe). I do know that’s really a reference to Daniels 70 weeks when Jesus spoke, after that time Israel where blinded in part until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled???
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven
Daniel 9:24-26 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereofshall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Time ran out?, so God allowed a time of Gentiles, but will return to Israel to fulfill the final prophecy concerning His second coming. if I’m wrong on Daniels weeks please advise, I find it difficult to view. After 62 week so on 63Rd week Christs annoiting or during 62week???
Question 2) Is there a gap between 69week and 70th. or was 70weeks fulfilled already, could Daniels 9 ending verse be separated from the 70weeks? I don’t count years too much. It seems strange to me so much Tribulation theology centres around the Antichrist pretending to be Christ. I except thats what will happen from Revelations, and Matthew 24/25. Scripture does mention it’s his little moment.
Question 3) If all Israel had repented before Stepthens death, Chirst would of come back to start 2nd coming and 1000year regin, but not all Israel repented? Was Israels rejection a reason for God to put them into time out or had time ran out. 70×7
Question 4) is it not interesting that Chirst was baptised to start His ministry, 3.5 year crucified and resurrected, 3.5 years then a pause of Jewish time whilst Gentiles time begins. Could the establishing of Physical Kingdom for Israel be last 7 years, but the last 7 in a weird (spiritual) way were the 7 years I mentioned above centred on Christ. don’t truly know if you can really apply Scripture for Church at all knowing is was given to Israel. Truthfully I agree with you on all I read on the mystery of the Church and don’t have anyone else sadly to ask there thoughts.
Believe or not, I had no intension of looking at end times (last 7 years), my focus is always Christ, in particular the Day of Christ in this case.
Luke,
1. See Romans 15.4; 1 Corinthians 10.11.
2. Unclear. Acts included a transition time from the kingdom program to Paul.
3. God gave the nation time to repent. Stephen’s stoning revealed they would not.
4. I do not understand. The kingdom will begin at Christ’s return and go for 1,000 years followed by eternity.
Don,
Doesnt it make sense that if Christ died in place of Gods judgement upon us then why would he judge His Church along with unbelievers in His wrath?
Your thoughts please.
Thank you for your time and ministry
Mark,
He doesn’t. God explicitly promised the Church will not endure God’s day of wrath, the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). As for the penalty of sin, death, Christ paid it so we have peace with God (Romans 5.1, 8.1).
Good evening Don
I see people are using the book of Ecclesiastes.
Isn’t it safe to say that Ecclesiastes is philosophical and not doctrinal?
Thank you for your ministry
Mark,
Ecclesiastes is philosophical but contains truth, therefore doctrinal.
Don
Very good point, however, I don’t think anyone would use Ecc 9.2 as part of a doctrinal statement (don’t understand how someone can use 9.10 to support their argument either). Isn’t 9.2 in contrast with Gen. 18.25?
Thank you Don
Mark,
Solomon’s main point is that death overtakes all and that one cannot do the things he did on earth in the grave.
For those who believe that 2 Thessalonians 2: 2 says” Day of the Lord”, are in contradiction to the critical Greek text ,which uses the worf kurious [Lord’or Master.If this verse had meant “Day of Christ” The Word would have been “Christos”.Bless your hearts.I believe that the afore mentioned article is rightly divided for the most part.
Hi Don, i was thinking about 1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously, he doesn’t reveal the mystery of the rapture until the end of the letter, so what understanding did they have of “the day of the Lord Jesus Christ” before the mystery of the rapture?
Becky,
Paul had revealed the Rapture to the Thessalonians but not to the Corinthians. Paul saved the full revelation of what “the day” entailed for the Corinthians until the end for these believers. Between chapters 1 and 15 he had to address a lot of problems.
Don, So the few times he mentioned the day of Christ in 1 Cor, they probably didn’t know what he was referring to – yet?
Becky,
I do not think we can answer this question dogmatically. We can state they knew what Paul wrote to them in 1 Corinthians 1.4-8, 3.13 about the Day of Christ. Apparently, he had not yet revealed the doctrine our the Rapture.
what is clear to me is paul is using the phrase ” our gathering together to him to describe the greek word parousia. this coming is any thing but secret. correspondence in letters found written 1st century was like a king coming with great pomp. See 2Cor 7:6, 1Cor 16:17, 2Peter 1:16, Matt 24:27 & Phil 1:26. This is something one can see with the naked eye.This same greek word is used of the rapture.1Thess 4:15
please note this is what destroys the man of lawlessness in 2Thess 2:8
paul states the parousia is what destroys him.For your edification this person whats to control the temple mount and the other religious cites in Israel. Check the web site chair of st. peter in jerusalem. You will find their is an agreement in 2009 when the muslim mullahs agreed he could rule from the golden mosque. The mullahs agreed to confess Jesus is the son of Mary, in turn the Pope agreed to say muslims are saved by the faith of abraham. Check 1997 catholic catechaism for proof. The united nations has agreed to protect the temple mount. When the arab leader appeared at the vatican recently Abbas was called the Angel of Peace. Other Popes have visit too, Pope Fancis & Benidict. 2Thess states this Man of Sin will sit in the Temple of God. The Pope carries Titles Holy Father, People bow to him, kiss his ring. Have you noticed how the reformed churches, Church of Constantnople has acknowledge him as the supreme Bishop of all christanity recently healing the great schism 0f 1054, church of England has gone back to the catholic church, united council of churches. They added non-canonical books to the Old Testament when the reformation occurred in 1519. Jesus Christs mediatorship is not adequate, he needed a mediatrix called Mary. Use of rosary in prayer, guess who gets more prayers addressed ? Mary (50) Father (3) Jesus (3) Holy Spirit (3) Trinity (3) She’s the Queen of Heaven. She”s Mother of God, I didn’t no she was the mother of his Diety.Church killed millions during dark ages. The reason Jews reject Jesus, because christian are called christ killers. The priests were force to be celibate around 1215 ad.Theres so much more that could be written, but be warned in zechariah 12 &14 relates the end of the world comes over the controversey of Jerusalem & they will be crushed to pieces by Yeshua/Jesus when he returns.This man of sin has been active since the Apostle paul warned of the rise of the elders/bishops in Acts 20:17-28. History and the scripture point this power who has existed since the 2nd century. As Satan possessed king of Trye & other rulers so this son of destruction will meet his fate soon
Robert,
The word παρουσία means “presence” or “coming.” Christ will come twice: the first time to remove His Church at the Rapture and the second time to destroy His enemies, chief of whom is the man of sin, and deliver the Jews at the end of the Tribulation. The world is moving towards globalism: world government and world religion. Paul wrote that the “secret of inquiry” was already at work. Satan does not know the details of God’s prophetic plan and is prepared in every generation to put forth his man.
Don,
Did the bible translators use different manuscripts for KJV and NASB? The translations for each is correct so they must have translated from different manuscripts.
Blessings
Becky,
The KJV is based upon the RT (Received Text), mostly Byzantine mss. The NASB and others were based upon the CT (Critical Text), mostly that of Westcott-Hort which used Alexandrian, Western, and Byzantine texts. Complex subject: textual criticism. Many variables. Most scholars go with CT but there are numerous problems. Lots of theory and assumptions.
Thanks Don,
OMGoodness . . . how is knowledge supposed to increase . . . if we can’t trust in the translations? It’s frustrating to say the least.
I’m just glad we have teachers like you that try to figure it all out for us.
Blessings
Becky,
We can trust the translations. Some have calculated something like 400,000 variant readings exist. But these affect only about 1% of the text and these variants have no impact on any significant doctrine. So not to worry. God has preserved His word. Grace and peace.
studylight.org has an excellent interlibrary Bible . Sometimes it’s fun to see the words for yourself. I use KJV but even it varies today from the older authorized version. The pits.
Doctrines articles is great to read too! And he studies out subjects well.
I love to study out the old words and the difference in language is way different today. Always good to do Acts 17:11.
Doctrine,
KJV of 2Thessalonians 2:2 uses “day of Christ”, in this verse. But for once it seems maybe more appropriate that the day of the Lord should be here in context. Lol am avid kjv fan. I see you addressed this in the note section in 1&2 Thessalonians lesson! Very clever doctrine. Good job!
Bobbi,
The KJV is a good translation and the translators did fine work (much of it came from the scholarship of William Tyndale) but some errors are pretty obvious based upon better manuscript witnesses. This is one.
Don,
Referring to the passage in Philippians 1:3-6, your comment says that Lydia was the first convert in Asia. In reading Acts 16, we are told Lydia was a person from Thyatira, but when she met Paul her heart was open to his message, she was in Europe (Macedonia) – where it appears she was currently living and working. And this was Paul’s second missionary journey. So I do not see how Lydia could be the first convert of Paul’s in Asia (Asia Minor). Perhaps she was the first convert in Europe. What say you?
Rob,
Thank you for pointing out the error. It should read, “Europe.” Great work!
Incredible work. Love the dialog seasoned with grace and truth. Thank u for answering according to the need of the moment.
Bryan,
Thank you!
Doctrine,
This is an awesome article on The day of Christ. The biggest thing that helped me understand, is that it’s in the Paul epistles only. There are lots of Pre-Trib sites and teachers that don’t make this distinction. Which is part of the problem with all the arguments against it. Mixing the gospels up makes a mess of Grace gospel doctrine.
Also, the KJV only movement is troubling as well. I love the KJV myself but this movement is causing so much antagonizion in believers in Jesus. Very sad to see. Another division sadly enough.
I pray the Lord comes soon.
Blessings to you.
Bobbi,
Thank you. The KJV only people do not understand that only the autographs are inspired and that we have enough reliable copies to get very close to the originals.
Good Morning Don, “The Day of the Lord” has me confused as it describes a time of total darkness and upheaval. Yet we read that people will be drinking and marrying and working in the fields. In addition during the mid point of the 7 years we have the Jews fleeing to the mountains so who are those who are having a ball. I cannot reconcile these 2 pictures. Could it be that the day of the Lord is taken over a period of certain years. In Revelation 6 we have mountains falling, stars falling annd still people will be having fun just as it was in the days of Noah. I am missing something here. Your input would be appreciated. Take care.
Vanessa,
Getting all the timing right in Revelation is difficult. We know what happens at the midpoint. After that everything intensifies. The point of eating and drinking is that people will live their lives unaware that judgment is about to come. This period of time is not necessarily confined to 7 years. It could last several years before the Tribulation begins. God is intentionally vague on timing and I think a period of time can transpire after the Rapture before the Tribulation begins. I speculate on this in When Will the Lord Return?
How can the Day of the Lord be the Tribulation, when that day comes after the tribulation? (Mat 24:29-31 compared with Acts 2:20: Joel 2:31)
Thess 2:1 Paul writes concerning the (that is only one and not two) coming (parousia= Christ’s second advent, His visible return from Heaven) and the Rapture. The Day of the Lord refers to His second coming and the Rapture, which are connected in the Greek as the same events at the Day of the Lord. Paul reveals further that day (His coming and the Rapture) will not come, until two events happen: 1. apostasy and 2. revealing of the Antichrist. All other commentaries are just speculation. To say that the Rapture does not happen, before the departure (rapture) comes, is nonsense. The departure has nothing to do with the Rapture, but with departing from faith (Acts 21:21) “depart from Me, you evildoer”
Mat 24:37 the coming (parousia) are as the days of Noah, this refers to judgment, but verse 41 and 44 refers to the Rapture ( be you also ready). Mat 13 tells us that judgment go together with the gathering. Both are the harvest (Rev 14).
Benjamin,
Technically, the Day of the Lord encompasses the Tribulation, the return of Christ, the Kingdom, and even the creation of new heavens and new earth. Most of the time the phrase is used however, it refers to God’s wrath, i.e., the Tribulation. See my commentary on 1 and 2 Thessalonians regarding “departure” (2 Thessalonians 2). Paul did not teach apostasy, he taught the Rapture. The Rapture was a secret (1 Corinthians 15.51). Therefore, it cannot be in Matthew 24. Everything in the gospels refers to the Day of the Lord and Christ’s 2nd coming.
The KJV is inerrant. The Textus Receptus is accurate; the Alexandrian manuscripts are obviously corrupt.
That said, the rapture is pre-trib, and the 2 Thess 2 “day of the Christ” poses no problem for it. The day of Christ (the rapture) will not come until the falling away happens, and until that man of sin (who will go on to become the Antichrist) is revealed. What it says he goes on to do does not imply that those things he will go on to do have to occur before the rapture.
In fact, 2 Thess 2:6-8 clarifies that we have to be taken out of the way before that Wicked be revealed. So in order to reconcile 2 Thess 2:2 with 2 Thess 2:6-8 we must say that, before the rapture, the man who will become the Antichrist must be revealed, but he cannot be revealed AS the Antichrist until the church is raptured out of the way.
Your article is fairly good. I agree with your distinction between “the day of the Lord” and “the day of Christ.” However, your otherwise exemplary article is marred by the fact that you cite a version of the Bible other than the KJV and by the fact that you needlessly resort to a false extra-biblical argument that relies on corrupted manuscripts.
If you think God is incapable of perfectly preserving his word in English as he promised he would do, you are worshipping the wrong God. The true and living one has complete control over his entire creation. He promised he would preserve his word forever – unto the final generation. Ancient Greek and Hebrew are dead languages; not only this, no inerrant copies of the originals survive. So there must be an inerrant version in English. The KJV translators possessed them and translated the originals flawlessly into English as anyone filled with the Holy Spirit should know. Otherwise we have no objective authority whereby to determine all truths and no reason to believe the God of the KJV is who he says he is. If I believed there was even one error in the KJV I wouldn’t believe one word of it.
Fearless Philosopher,
The KJV is a translation written from copies of mss. We have thousands of copies of mss. and the goal of textual critics is to determine the correct text. This is true also of the Old Testament. God has preserved His word in the mss. and they provide an accurate witness of Him and His plan. There are hundreds of thousands of variant readings in the NT but they are largely insignificant. No one is going to miss salvation or fail to understand how to live a godly life based on these variants. Only the autographs were inerrant. God never promised to preserve the Bible in English. If you believe this, provide a verse. The reading “day of Christ” in the KJV is clearly wrong and has almost no textual support. It should read, “day of the Lord” and such a reading makes sense to Paul’s point.
Bud says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
May 22, 2017 at 1:44 am
Doctrine:
I agree with you for the most part but not on your statement “We can trust the Translations” True God has preserved His word and will continue to do so but we are just humans and can be confused and led into error just like Adam and Eve were. I trust the KJV it is true but I am a Bibelist not a KJV only person. I will not trust any of the new Junk printed by the Devils unsaved crowd for the purpose of making money. They must by law change or delete a lot of Gods word every time they come out with a new”So called Bible”. Otherwise they can’t copyright it like they always do. There is no copyright on the KJV only the junk man inserts in the book they print. I do not want anything to do with any one that changes Gods Word as they do today and Satan did.
I have enjoyed this site and all I want to say more is God bless you all and I pray you all find the truth. I am Pretrib but the subject is being covered without me joining. I refuse though to in any way endorse these modern so called Translations that have been edited by Satan and his crowd.
You may find this worth reading:
“Unholy Hands on Gods Holy Book”
http://www.wholesomewords.org/link.html
Bud,
The KJV is a translation. The autographs were God-breathed. The issue of the “true text” lies in the manuscript copy witnesses and this generally regards the critical text vs. the majority text. Most modern translations are based upon the critical text. The KJV is based upon but is not identical to the majority text. People can disagree about particular passages and readings but in almost all cases these disagreements do not affect crucial doctrines. The KJV reading of 2 Thessalonians 2.2 “day of Christ” does affect a crucial doctrine and is in error. The correct reading is “day of the Lord” correctly rendered in the critical text. The point I wish to make is that each passage with a variant reading must be examined on its own merits. No translation is perfectly accurate but most can be trusted within the mentioned caveats.
Don, a friend of mine who is KJV only had this to say about the Day of Christ: “In 2 Thess 2:2 the day of Christ means the same thing as the day of the Lord. Both refer to Daniels 70th week, Jacob’s Trouble, it encompasses the entire 7 years in this passage. The phrase “Day of Christ “ is used 2 other times though and refers to the coming of Christ in the air to catch us, the Body of Christ, up at the close of the age of grace. You just have to read the passage carefully to see because the term applies to both as both events culminate in Christ returning first to the air later to earth.”
How do I respond to her?
Craig,
Such an explanation is a desperate attempt to defend the KJV translation at all cost. The manuscipt evidence for “day of Christ” is extremely weak. Paul made a clear distinction between the “day of the Lord” (bad) and “the day of Christ” (good). The Thessalonian problem was that some were trying to convince them that the trials they were experiencing meant that they were in the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord. Paul had taught them differently (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). In 2 Thessalonians he tells them the Day of the Lord cannot come until after the Rapture (the departure, ἡ ἀποστασία). Only after this event, after the Church, the body of Christ, is removed will the “man of sin, the son of perdition” be revealed.
The main issue here is man’s inability to accept that God divinely inspired His Word and His Words and gave them to us in one book. The AV or Authorized Version King James Bible. I will simply leave you with the following links to messages that resolve this issue… If you’re saved and you let the Holy Spirit speak to you on this matter while you watch these, and be completely honest with yourself, the truth will be evident. Enjoy!
This one “Why I Believe the King James Bible Is the Word of God”. Watch all 5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIzxXMxw4CE
This one ” How to know the KJV Is the Only Truth Word of God”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvnOFda0A7E&t=25s
And if you weren’t convinced by the first two and what to dig deeper then here’s another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLQv5lPCPt8
If you can’t accept that there is a one true Errorless Word of God that we can use for doctrine, reprove, rebuke, and all exhortation then which version should I read and study and learn? Which version should I believe? The Word of God is the only sure foundation upon which any understanding can be made. So this whole back and forth discussion about the day of the Lord vs the Day of Christ is meaningless unless you have a Truth errorless Bible from cover to cover and that book is the KJV Authorized Version. That’s my foundation what’s yours?
Paul,
God committed His Word into the hands of men. The autographs were God-breathed. We have faithful copies of the autographs. Moses did not write the KJV. Paul did not write the KJV. The KJV is a fine translation but it is not God-breathed. It has errors (I pointed one out) as does every translation. One can make the case the KJV is the most accurate version but one cannot make the case it is without error.
I dont believe the KJV is without translation errors either. The only version without error is the original.
Kjv is a fine translation but its not perfect.
Did either of you gentlemen listen to or watch the links that I left above before responding? If not, I challenge you to find the courage to do so.
The issue here is a question of Final Authority.
Question: If you believe there is no infallible bible without error, then what man determines what is or what is not an error in the bible? Which verses should I believe and which ones should I ignore because of their error? Are you going to tell me? are you going to interpret the scriptures for me so I can have an understanding of what God wrote? Who is qualified? That’s exactly what Catholics expect their priests to do for them, are you Catholic?
If modern day translators are so smart that they can interpret the Word of God, then why aren’t they smart enough to simply remove the verses they think are in error so that we can all have an error-less Bible. Why would I want to waste my time reading a bible strewn with mistakes? You see this whole site is supposed to be a resource for sound bible doctrine discussing the many important doctrines of the Bible. However, how are you going to do this without one infallible source? You need a sound standard by which all questions can be answered, comparing scripture with scripture. So…what version of the truth are you going to use? The ASV, RSV, NIV, NKJV or how about the Catholic bible with the Apocrypha, or is the The Message good enough? Who are you to determine what to add or take away from the Bible? see Rev 2:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
2 Tim 2:15
If all bible translations have error, how am I supposed to do what God commanded us to in II Tim 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” ??? He commands us to Study the Word and rightly divide it.
If you want to know why people don’t care and why people think all bibles including the KJV have error, it’s because they have not a love for the truth, they don’t seek after absolute truth and have a sincere yearning to study to figure out what is truth and what is not. It also has to do with the herd mentality, very few these days stick there neck out for what they believe in or stand up for the truth; it’s much much easier to just go along with the pack.
I’ll Leave you with this.
John 8:44 “He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
Psalm 12:6 “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.”
The Bible says the WORDS of the Lord are pure and tried in a furnace of earth seven times. Were the words of Westcott and Hort pure? how about the words of the NIV or NWT or RSV…are they pure and were they tried in a furnace of earth seven times?
Paul,
The infallibility of the Bible rests in the autographs, not in translations. God has preserved and superintended His word by the thousands of copies of manuscripts, not by making a translation infallible. Such an idea is a man-made, human invention with no Biblical support. It is error. Do you think God made an English translation errorless but not a German, French, Italian, etc. translation? We KNOW the KJV has errors. So if we know this, does this mean God makes mistakes? The Scriptures are human and divine. The autographs were perfect. Errors resulted in the copies because humans err. Textual criticism is the work of determining the correct text. We have 100% accurate information within 105% of the copies. One can argue the KJV is more accurate than other versions. That is a reasonable position. But to argue it is errorless is a lie. Satan is the father of lies. Please do not spread a lie.
Hello bro Don, the feast of trumpets to messianic Jews represents the rapture of the body of Christ , this however cannot be because the mystery program was not revealed to Israel, so then if it does not represent the rapture what do you think it represents ? Thanks in advance :)
George,
This is not an area I have studied so can’t answer.
I have a question of concern and by all means im not trying to start an argument; just studying the Word and stumbled upon this article. The 2nd book of Thessalonians states the rapture (gathering together with Christ in the air) paraphrasing of course, cannot happen until the falling away (which i believe is the Church being taken away) happens and the son of perdition is revealed. Now 1 question i have is, if Paul is talking to the believers of Christ, wouldn’t he mean that the son of perdition be revealed to the Church? If he’s not to be revealed to the Church who then and can i have biblical proof of who Paul is talking about; that is to see the revealing? Another thing, If the Holy Spirit leaving is indeed the falling away and the Holy Spirit can never leave us, yet no one can be saved unless the Holy Spirit touches their heart, how does all those people get saved in Revelation (during Tribulation) that John couldn’t number? Is it possible that the day Christ was talking about in Matthew 24 was both the day of the Lord and the day of Christ, with the day of Christ happening first? He does speak of people in fields and mills and then some of them missing as if He was talking about the rapture also? Thanks
Michael,
Paul meant the son of perdition cannot be revealed until the Church is gone. He is revealed to the world. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. Apparently, His presence in members of the Church, the body of Christ, prevents the son of perdition’s appearance. But the Holy Spirit is still present in the world. God saves people after the Church is gone the same way He’s always saved people: whoever calls upon Him. The people in the fields taken are taken to judgment; those remaining enter the Kingdom. This is not a Rapture passage.
The Ones taken in the Field and the Mill are the Saved which occurs when the Son of God comes for His Own.The Ones left are left to the Wrath of God.This is How the Taking Away of the Saved Happens.
Aidan,
The ones taken go to judgment; the ones remaining enter the kingdom.
Dear doctrine Post author,
In your ‘INTRODUCTION’ you contradict your whole article…
You said, “Day of Christ & Day of the Lord” is separate times.
2 Thess. 2:2 “day of Christ” is at hand.’ was not added to the list of “Day of Christ.”
Debby,
If you read the article, you will see 2 Thessalonians 2.2 reads “day of the Lord,” not “day of Christ.” This is explained in footnote 2.
2 Thessalonians 2:2
(TS2009) not to become easily unsettled in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as if the day of יהוה has come.
(ABP+) forG1519 G3588 [2to notG3361 3quicklyG5030 4be shakenG4531 1you]G1473 ofG575 theG3588 mind,G3563 norG3383 to be alarmed,G2360 neitherG3383 byG1223 spirit,G4151 norG3383 byG1223 word,G3056 norG3383 byG1223 letter,G1992 asG5613 byG1223 us,G1473 thatG5613 G3754 [5is presentG1764 1theG3588 2dayG2250 3of theG3588 4Christ].G5547
(ASV) to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
(BBE) That you may not be moved in mind or troubled by a spirit, or by a word, or by a letter as from us, with the suggestion that the day of the Lord is even now come;
(Bishops) That ye be not sodenlye moued from [your] minde, nor be troubled, neither by spirite, nor by worde, nor yet by letter, as from vs, as though the daye of Christe were at hande.
(CEV) not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim that the Lord has already come. They may say that they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters.
(Darby) that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
(DRB) That you be not easily moved from your sense nor be terrified, neither by spirit nor by word nor by epistle. as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.
(EMTV) not to be quickly shaken from your mind, nor be disturbed, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ has come.
(ERV) Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote.
(ESV) not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
(ESV+) not to be quickly shaken in mind or R3alarmed, either R4by a spirit or a R5spoken word, or R5a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that R6the day of the Lord has come.
(Geneva) That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
(GNB) not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
(GW) Don’t get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
(ISV) not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
(JUB) that ye not be easily shaken in understanding or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as from us, as if the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV+) That yeG5209 be notG3361 soonG5030 shakenG4531 inG575 mind,G3563 orG3383 be troubled,G2360 neitherG3383 byG1223 spirit,G4151 norG3383 byG1223 word,G3056 norG3383 byG1223 letterG1992 asG5613 fromG1223 us,G2257 as thatG3754 theG3588 dayG2250 of ChristG5547 is at hand.G1764
(KJV-1611) That yee bee not soone shaken in minde, or bee troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from vs, as that the day of Christ is at hand,
(KJVA) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV-BRG) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(LEB) that you not be easily shaken from your composure, nor be troubled either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter alleged to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived.
(LITV) for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.
(MKJV) that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.
(Murdock) that ye be not soon agitated in your mind, nor be troubled, neither by word, nor by spirit, nor by letter, as coming from us, that lo, the day of our Lord is at hand.
(RV) to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
(TLV) not to get shaken out of your mind or disturbed—either by a spirit or a word or a letter as if through us—as though the Day of the Lord has come.
(TS2009) not to become easily unsettled in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as if the day of יהוה has come.
(WEB) not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come.
(WEBA) not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come.
(Webster) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(Weymouth) not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled–either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us–through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
(Williams) not to let your minds be easily unsettled or even be excited, whether by some message by the Spirit or by some saying or letter that is claimed as coming from me, saying that the day of the Lord is already here.
(YLT) that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
Who should we believe??
Debby,
Many textual variants are difficult. This one is not. That is why I provided the textual evidence. The overwhelming evidence supports the reading, “day of the Lord.” Believe the textual evidence.
Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr Samdahl, I was asked to take a look at your article after commenting on an article on another website that focuses on the news as it relates to prophesy. I found that many of your observations are factually correct, yet, you have taken them and forced them into a system of eschatological understanding that relies heavily on assumptions, inferences, and circular reasoning.
You correctly pointed out the differences between what Paul talks about when he uses the phrase “the day of Christ” and his and other’s description of events when referencing “the day of Lord.” It is true that the use of any of the phrases other than “the day of the Lord,” have a different emphasis than the period that begins with the execution of God’s eschatological wrath upon the earth dwellers. However, both days (periods of time) begin when Christ arrives from heaven at His appearing and revelation. The singular future coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of Jesus Christ shall initiate both days.
The day of Christ is the parousia of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with His church. The day of the Lord is the parousia of Christ with emphasis upon his interaction with the unbelieving world. This must be the correct understanding of the differences that you have observed because of at least two explicit statements, one from Christ and the other from Paul.
Jesus said that the day of our rapture will be the very day that His wrath begins to be poured out unexpectedly upon the unbelieving world at His revelation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Paul said that the day of our rapture (the day the church rests from persecution) is when (the day that) Christ’s vengeance falls upon the unbelieving world. The day of our rapture is the day that God begins to tribulate the unbelieving Beast worshipers who had violently persecuted the church.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
For God’s day of the Lord wrath to fall on the same day as our rescue, necessitates that the revelation and appearing, and the beginning of the day of Christ and the beginning of the day of the Lord happen on the same day.
There are many other misunderstandings that you have, or false conclusions that you have made, however, I have found it best to deal with them one at a time.
Thank you in advance for any response.
Pastor Conley
All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ
Pastor Conley,
Paul taught the Rapture was a secret (1 Corinthians 15.51). It was not taught before Paul received this revelation from the risen Lord. It is not taught in the OT or Gospels. Jesus made no mention of it. Paul did not state that the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, starts when the Rapture occurs. It may but it may not occur until 30 years later. We are not told the timeframe. See my article, When Will the Lord Return? If you read the Scripture carefully, this is clear. All Paul stated was that Christ will come to deliver His Church from God’s wrath and that after this the Day of the Lord comes.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr Samdahl, 1Corinthians 15:51 says absolutely nothing about a secret rapture. In fact, the whole chapter doesn’t mention the “catching up” at all. The chapter is about the resurrection of the dead, not the “catching up”. They (resurrection/change and rapture) are related because the one happens right after the other at Christ’s appearing, but they are not the same thing.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The mystery, that you imply refers to the rapture, is that all believers will not need to die physically to receive the benefits of the resurrection. Every believer will receive a changed body when Christ appears, whether or not they had physically died. Jesus even made reference to this at the raising of Lazarus.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the change of those believers who are alive and remain is distinct from the catching up (rapture). The resurrection and change will take place in an indivisible moment of time. The catching up is carried out by the angels; nothing is said about it being instantaneous. Yes, it follows the resurrection/change, but it is not the same thing.
Concerning your statement that it is not taught in the OT or Gospels you are in error. The end-time gathering of the righteous to Christ is found throughout the Holy Scriptures. In the Gospels, Christ mentions this gathering.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive [paralambano] you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken [paralambano], and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken [paralambano], and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (please note that the reapers bring in the harvest as well as deliver the tares to be burned)
Jesus clearly taught that there was going to be a gathering of the righteous by the angels to Himself at the end of the age. That is the same thing Paul taught. There will be nothing secret about Christ’s arrival to gather His own to Himself and to take vengeance upon those who had persecuted His church.
The persecution that Paul references in 2Thes 1, which is taking place right before the revelation of Christ, is the same persecution that Jesus speaks of taking place right before His revelation as recorded in Matt 24. This period of unprecedented persecution is that which Jesus called great tribulation.
Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
The subjects in context are believers in the “church age”. They are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord. Paul’s statement is consistent with Christ’s narrative of the days which precede His coming.
In Matt 24 Christ said that before His arrival, the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation. According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution.
The order of events: The cosmic sign which portends Christ’s arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord takes place. Then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see. Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds. Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers.
Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ’s revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ’s revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan’s wrath in the great tribulation.
I have just demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God’s wrath poured out in the day of the Lord.
Concerning your statement that the rapture may happen 30 years before the day of the Lord, you have made a significant move from classic pretribulational dispensationalism. You apparently see no need to begin the seventieth week when the church age has ended. I am just pointing out your departure from classic dispensationalism to which pretribulationism is inseparably linked. I am in no way in agreement with the tenants of traditional dispensationalism, especially concerning the parameters of the church age.
Jesus told the founding members of the Church that He would be with them in the making of disciples and in the teaching of all His commandments until the end of the age (Matt 28:19-20). The same end of the age (Matt 24:3), the disciples asked a sign for in relation to Christ’s parousia. The church will be on the earth until Christ’s singular future parousia. The rapture happens at His parousia.
Thank you for your response.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
Steve,
The problem of your position (and the vast majority in Christendom) is that it does not recognize Paul’s unique apostleship. It simply sees Paul as an appendage to the Twelve. God saved Paul to begin a new, unrevealed program, the Church, the body of Christ. Paul wrote that God gave him secrets, revelations, He had kept hidden (2 Corinthians 12.7 KJV). Most in Christendom do not understand Paul’s apostleship and that is why there is so much confusion. The word μυστήριον has been translated “mystery,” but this is a transliteration, not a translation. The word does not mean “mystery.” It means “secret.” God revealed to Paul numerous secrets which the Twelve did not know. Paul wrote of the “secret of the gospel” (Ephesians 6.19). The gospel of the kingdom was not a secret. But Paul’s gospel, that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead” was. The Twelve had no understanding that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead for our salvation. This is clear from the Council of Jerusalem for Paul wrote that he had to explain it to them (Galatians 2.2 KJV). Paul wrote that the Church, the body of Christ, was a secret. The Twelve had no understanding of the Church, the body of Christ. They never mention it in their writings. The Twelve had no ministry to Gentiles—ever. The Church, the gospel, the blinding of Israel, the Rapture were secrets. No one knew about these things until the risen Christ revealed them to Paul. When you mix God’s program of Israel with His program of the Church confusion is the result. Take the Bible for what it says, not for what tradition says it says and your understanding will be opened. I explain these things in my articles and also in my book, God’s Programs.
Mr Conley,regards and respect to your freedom to express your thoughts on Day of Christ and The Day of the Lord.
Seems( open to interpretation) you are mixing two separate events into ONE. also
the word/reference “elect” understood by who or which elect scripture is referring to by context of how it is used (inside what that topic is covering)?
One event “..our gathering together unto him (rapture) , …” The other as a thief in the night” coming..when “every eye shall see him” toward end of tribulation period.
Be blessed
David
Don, can you explain why this pre wrath teaching is incorrect. I am having a discussion with someone who does not believe in pre trib. They believe the first part of the tribulation is satan’s wrath and not God’s.
Craig,
A good summary of the timetable is https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html. The Tribulation period lasts 7 years. It is the last week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy. The participants are Israel and Gentiles (nations). Paul stated that our present world consists of Jews, Gentiles, and Church (1 Corinthians 10.32). We do not find any hint of the Church in Revelation—only Jews and Gentiles. Paul taught that the Church will not undergo wrath—whether one thinks it is Satan’s wrath or God’s wrath is irrelevant (Romans 5.9; 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). Paul commanded believers to separate from believers who oppose his teachings (Romans 16.17; 1 Timothy 6.3-5). In particular, this included denial of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (2 Thessalonians 3.6, 14). Those who deny The Pre-Tribulational Rapture are false teachers.
Don,
Thanks so much for this website and all of the information included. I was roughly aware of dispensationalism but didn’t realize how critical the concept, the reality, was in terms of making sense of the Bible. I didn’t learn it here, but looking for more information led me to this website. Rightly dividing scripture and understanding who was being spoken TO (and for what purpose) explains why so much of what Jesus said would cause a casual reader to question their salvation and feel like they needed to DO something, or to feel like there would come a day when a subjective decision was going to have to be made by God as to whether one had met some unclear set of requirements closely enough to be deemed ok to enter heaven. It still seems strange that learned people, pastors and other teachers, so-called experts in the field, would just pass over something so fundamental and not teach their congregations these basic truths. Anyway, a few questions if you don’t mind:
1. I had never heard any teaching on a gap of time between the Rapture and the Tribulation period. It’s almost exclusively taught as an almost immediate move from Rapture to Tribulation. Is there supporting scripture?
2. Is it the case for Raptured believers that we exist only in heaven and don’t/can’t go to the new earth, or can we be in both places or we just don’t know?
Thanks!
Keith,
Thank you for your kind words and may the Lord continue to give you understanding.
1. There is no Scripture I am aware to support a gap but there is also no Scripture that precludes it. Good reasons exist for a longer span of time before the Beast appears. Acts is a period of transition with 40 years of testing for the Jews. Satan does not know when God will remove the Church so it will take time to prepare the Beast. Jesus was 30 before He began His ministry and since Satan is the great imitator and counterfeiter of God he will probably follow a similar plan. So, there may be 40 years of testing from the removal of the Church until the Lord returns.
2. The Church has heavenly citizenship and heaven will be our primary habitat but I do not think this altogether precludes our involvement on earth. We are only told we are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ, and we will rule angels. As a joint-heir of Christ, we may have some earthly responsibilities. It’s interesting to think about but God has not seen fit to tell us more. Paul may have been given insight but was forbidden to disclose it. Whatever will be, it will be glorious beyond comprehension. We await an eternal weight of glory.
Don,
I’m in contact with a person who insists that the Day of Christ is the event beginning with the Judgement Seat of Christ. He says the Day of Christ begins AFTER the rapture.
Does time exist for believers after the Rapture? Is there time in Heaven or the New Jerusalem?
I’ve always thought of Heaven as a perpetual present. No clocks needed. No entropy. No time. Nothing comes ‘after’ another as we think of series of events today.
Thoughts?
Joe,
We do not understand what time is much less eternity. There must be some kind of time in eternity, since all events do not happen at once, but are iterative. But how this works is not possible to understand in our reality. The Day of Christ involves both the Rapture and Christ’s judgment of our works. It seems to me that anyone who reads the passages which include the Day of Christ will conclude it includes the Rapture.
Until recently I was a pre-trib guy. I started a study on the topic a few months ago and have a better understanding but also have a lot more questions. I used to think there were just three positions but there are literally hundreds of secondary thoughts being argued.
One thing that stands out to me is folks calling God’s wrath, (the day of the lord) the tribulation period. I don’t believe these are the same. The tribulation consists of the anti-Christ seated in the temple pretending to be God while having people beheaded for failing to worship him. Godless people will be enjoying good times as those who refuse to take the mark are beheaded. Two witnesses killed in the street and wicked people sending gifts and celebrating their demise. Where is God’s wrath in that? Is God pouring out his wrath on those who refuse to worship the beast? Of course not.
After reading Daniel, Joel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thessalonians, Philippians, and of course Revelation, it seems obvious to me that Christians are being persecuted for their faith in Jesus during the time of the great tribulation. Did Jesus not warn that we would have tribulation. He never told us we would escape tribulation from those who oppose God.
The tribulation ends with the sun and the moon going dark and the day of the Lord begins with the same event. The wrath of God is about Scorpion like bugs torturing those people who had not been sealed (144,000 Jewish witnesses) It’s about a noisome and grievous sore appearing on all those who took the mark of the beast. It’s about a bad day for those people who worshiped the anti-Christ.
Ray,
I do not know why anyone would think the Tribulation is not God’s wrath since it is clear from Paul’s statements that this is what he had in mind. Believers will be persecuted during the Tribulation but they will not be members of the Church. Paul’s gospel is not proclaimed during this time but the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24.13). This single fact demonstrates the Church is not present in the Tribulation and is yet another (of many) proofs for the Pre-tribulation Rapture.
I get what you are saying. After the rapture all the people who are left behind cannot be saved by faith in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. It’s too late for that. They will have to endure until the end. Since Matthew says, He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved, must mean that the church is already gone at this point. However, that is assuming Christians (The Church) will not be required to endure until the end. I don’t believe every time we sin that we lose our salvation. But I don’t believe we can completely turn our backs on God and live however we want and expect we’re going to heaven either. I’d say a person was just trying to get his get out of hell free card. No indwelling of the Hold Spirit there. Matthew tells us there will be a great falling away. Perhaps that is because if you don’t take the mark you won’t be able to buy food or pay your bills. People will be lovers of themselves and not lovers of God. They will take that mark in their forehead or hand and worship the Antichrist to maintain a comfortable lifestyle. They will not endure unto the end and be saved. The tribulation will be a time of purification of the church. Only the true believers and lovers of Jesus will deny the Antichrist and endure his wrath. Another thing. God has demonstrated his ability to care for the needs of his people in desperate times and the tribulation probably won’t be any different. Manna anyone?
How about this:
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Are you telling me that tribulation saints (those who get saved after the rapture) are going to be so great a multitude that no man can number them? Where is the church if this isn’t it? These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
These are also the same Christians from chapter 6. Verse 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
This brings up another proof for a difference between the tribulation and the day of the Lord. After this the 6th seal is broken, the sun and the moon go dark. The sun and the moon going dark is mentioned numerous times in several different books. In Matthew it says immediately after the tribulation the sun and the moon go dark. In Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. They are separated by this event.
I didn’t expect you would read my reply and change your view. I think if Jesus himself told you, you’d refuse to listen. But other people who are reading this should know not to trust everything they read no matter how smart and well versed a person appears to be. People ask yourself, would satan want you to believe you have nothing to worry about or would he want you to prepare yourself for his coming by reading your bible, praying, and preparing yourself spiritually for what you will have to endure when he arrives.
Ray,
We are not told to “endure to the end” for salvation. We are told to believe Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead. The Church is not in Revelation. The Church is gone. Paul wrote we are not appointed to wrath (Romans 5.9; 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). Jews and Gentiles go through the Tribulation, not the Church (see 1 Corinthians 10.32). If you have 7 billion people on earth and 7 million are saved is that a innumerable multitude? I would say yes—I could not count even a million. If 1% were saved that would be 70,000,000. The point about the sun going dark is that it is all in the timeframe of the Day of the Lord. Jesus called this the Tribulation (Matthew 24.21, 29). So it’s the same event.
I’m confused as to what will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Is it works as in things physically done or is it a judgement of beliefs and doctrinal understanding? To me, it doesn’t make sense that it is a judgement of physical works, given the nature of our doctrine that works are essentially meaningless to God.
Keith,
I take it this judgment will be for rewards for faithfulness to Christ in doctrine, works, etc.
The Rapture of the Church takes place at the sixth seal and that is where also God’s wrath begins.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered:
The seals are mans wrath not God’s and yes Jesus is opening the seals but Jesus is always in control of everything, always. I personally believe we are living in the 5th seal now and in the birth pains period.
Notice after chapter six that the Church is complete in heaven and that it’s the 144000 that are witnessing and the angels.
Side note Revelation 6 -11 and Revelation 12 – 19 are the same story with different details. Like Gen 1 & Gen 2.
Dave,
The Scriptures explicitly teach the Church is not in the Tribulation. What you have written is false teaching and goes against everything God has revealed on this subject.
The Pre-tribulation rapture is a false teaching. Now if you want to label it pre-wrath, I can get behind that as we are not appointed the wrath of God. Not all of Revelation is God’s wrath, some of it is the wrath of fallen man. Look Christians all over the Globe are dying for their faith, more and more each day. Only in the western world are we waiting for the rapture, hoping not be killed for following Jesus. Just take a look at the world right now. CV19, UBI, Agenda 21 – 30, Global Reset, Health passports & One health, and what will happen when Western Christians have to start dying for their faith or rounded up in the name of social justice. A lot of them are going to fall away. This is not 5 to 10 years from today this is a the door right now.
Revelation 6, Matthew 24 – line up together.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We are the Elect.
Dave,
Many verses declare the Tribulation is God’s wrath, the first being Psalm 2.5. I do not know where you get the idea the Tribulation is not God’s wrath but it is not from the Bible. God’s wrath, the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation concerns Israel and the nations, not the Church, the body of Christ. Not a word of Church language is in Revelation. Revelation 2-3 concerns Jewish congregations, not the Church. Jesus told those who had believed the gospel of the kingdom they had to endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 24.13). That is what he told these Jewish congregations in Revelation 2-3. God never told the Church that. Your theology is all mixed up for you are mixing Israel and the Church, the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God.
So basically if I understand you correctly. The book of revelation, none of it is for the Church? Even at the end? The 1000 year reign? Personally I believe the book of revelation is like the book of acts. It transitions us from the Gospel of Grace to the Kingdom Gospel @ the 6th seal. I guess we shall see. Let’s move on from that. I did buy one of your books and am looking forward to reading it. I do have another question for you.
Sin? IF we are under 100 percent of Grace, what about the issue of sin. What if a professing Christian doesn’t grow? I mean now a days we have all kinds of people claiming to be Christian living a lot of worldly lifestyles. (Same sex marriage, Living together outside of Marriage, we see the world going down the tubes especially here in America.). You don’t seem to have anything on the subject. Or maybe I missed it. Is there such thing as too much grace?
I found your website while looking into the subject of Pauls Gospel verses the Kingdom Gospel. So some of this is new but I could clearly see in Scripture that I was on the right path towards this idea.
Dave,
Revelation deals with God’s prophetic program. Peter, James, John, and Jude wrote to Jewish believers, not to members of the Church the body of Christ. The apostles thought the Tribulation would occur in the lifetime. The overarching theme of all their letters was endurance, for Jesus had told them they had to endure to be saved. He told them every sin would be forgiven but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That blasphemy is to take the mark of the Beast. John wrote that whomever takes his mark is doomed. It cannot be undone. This whole matter is what Jesus talked about when He spoke about taking up one’s cross and following Him and the one who saved his life would lose it but the one who lost his life for His sake would save it. The Antichrist appears at the beginning of the 7 years and Paul wrote he cannot appear until after the Church is removed. You are right, a lot of people claim to be Christians, but are they? We are under grace but Paul wrote that God killed or made ill those who were living immoral lives and abusing the Lord’s supper. He wrote God is not mocked. Being under grace does not mean there are no consequences for sin.
Earthy consequences verses eternal consequences. My view has always been do you really believe what you say you believe? Your life will show it. Examine yourself. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Looking forward to reading your book this coming week.
Dave,
Yes. Hope you enjoy the book. Which one are you going to read?
The Rapture is for the Church. The gospel of Grace is for the Church. Those who believe in the death, burial and resurrection constitute the Body of Christ ie The Church. Who are the ones singled out in the Rapture……answer: Those who believe in the resurrection. The Rapture is the Body of Christ’s escape from wrath.
Paul is explicit:
1 Thess 4—14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
Who is the apostle who taught a believer is ‘in Christ’?—only Paul.
Who is the apostle who only taught the Rapture? ditto
The 12 new nothing of the resurrection until after the cross—John 20: 9
example:
I believe John the Baptist was a believer. Will he be caught up in the rapture?—No. He knew nothing of the resurrection or of being ‘in Christ’. J the B is not in the body of Christ……..The Church will not see wrath
Joe,
While Paul used “in Christ” more than anyone and mostly meant those who had believed his gospel, who were members of the Church, being “in Christ” and being a member of the Church, the body of Christ, are not necessarily equal. See Romans 16.7, Galatians 1.22, 1 Peter 3.16, 5.14. All the saved are “in Christ.”
A believer of/in the gospel of the Kingdom at the time it was valid and the gospel of Grace today are IN CHRIST?
Do I understand that correctly?
Thank you
Craig,
Yes.
Don,
I’m confused.
The OT believers believed in God and looked forward to a Messiah. (?)
Did Abraham look forward to a Messiah? Is/was Abraham ‘in Christ’ after he believed God? How could Abraham have known about Jesus as an individual?
When was the Gospel of the KIngdom established? (believing who Jesus was).
Was there a gospel before Christ’s ministry, another during Christ’s ministry (Kingdom) and another (Grace) after Christ’s earthly ministry?
When did ‘In Christ’ begin?
Thank you for your patience. Joe
Were the Jewish non-believers in Jesus as the Christ still looking ahead for a Messiah? If so, then looking for the Messiah was not the means for salvation, correct? Recognizing Jesus as the Messiah was the means for salvation before the gospel of Grace was established, correct?
The Messiah was Jesus but OT believers didn’t know his name or date of appearance.
Joe,
Did you look at the Scriptures I sent? Paul says other were in Christ before him. Peter wrote that those who had believed the gospel of the kingdom were “in Christ.”
Hello Joe the Bible says clearly in Gal 3:8 that the gospel was preached to Abraham. That is when God called Abram in Gen 12. In Gen 12:8 Abram called on the name of the Lord at Bethel and was saved per Rom 10:13. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham in Gen 15:6 because he simply believed in God and what God told him. Abraham had this righteousness prior to being circumcised at age 99 per Gen 17:24. the Bible makes that clear in Rom 4:9-11. So you see the Gospel is the same for the Old Testament believers as well as the New Testament believers. The O.T believers looked forward to the cross of the messiah and we look back at the cross of Jesus and we are alls saved the same way. Faith alone in Christ Alone by God’s Amazing Grace. Hope this helps. God bless you.
Since salvation is the work of God, not man, it did/does not matter that it took centuries for God to fully reveal his plan. It is something he did for us, and it is independent of time and history. The apostles had no idea what Jesus accomplished at the cross. God took decades to fully reveal it to the apostles, including Paul. Much current church doctrine is based on a partially revealed Gospel.
The Holy Spirit does not direct us to “give our heart to Jesus.” He directs us to “come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Don,
Yes I did read those verses in 1 Peter.
Do you think Peter’s gospel by 63 AD was the gospel of Grace? (I’m assuming 63 is the date of Peter’s epistle). I know you mention above the gospel of the kingdom but after Acts 15 Peter was teaching the gospel of Grace…..??? or no???
Joe,
In 51 A.D. at the Council the gospel of the kingdom ended. After this anyone who proclaimed a gospel different from Paul was cursed (Galatians 1.6-9). But Peter wrote to those who had believed the kingdom gospel. They remained under that gospel. Peter expected the Tribulation to occur soon. Those under the gospel of the kingdom had to endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10.22, 24.13). The main message of the letters of Peter, James, John, Jude was to endure to the end.
Don,
It must have been a confusing time for those saved under the Kingdom gospel before the Acts’ 15 Council to hear the Gospel of Grace was in effect and the means of salvation had changed from ‘who’ Christ was to ‘what’ Christ did. Do you think any of the Kingdom believers switched to Grace (Body of Christ) believes? I guess this is what Peter meant when he said ‘some (of Paul’s) things are hard to be understood”.
Joe,
I do not think it was confusing. The letters of Peter, James, John, and Jude addressed believers of the gospel of the kingdom as did Paul when he wrote Hebrews. No one “switched.” Whatever gospel they were saved under they stayed with.
I have ordered all your books, and have read some part of them. But can you really mean that, like this person is unsaved without reading you theories regarding the Bible. Is this following guy going to hell, by not believing (I suppose, as a standard) on the gospel of grac?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=727K1tRPI1s
Isak,
The only way of salvation from sin and death is to believe the gospel Paul proclaimed, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead. That is the message of salvation. There is no other way. In 1 Corinthians 15.1-4 Paul wrote his gospel: 1 Now I declare to you, brethren, the gospel that I proclaimed to you, which you also received, by which also you stand, 2 through which also you are saved, if you possess that message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first, what I also received: Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
Hi Don,
Your post on the rapture is a good piece of work. And also your differentiating the day of Christ and the day of the Lord is spot on. Except that you place 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 under the day of Christ. I guess that is because you teach that you cannot loose your salvation (and that is not what Paul teaches).
When you look at the Greek text, verse 5 reads ‘te hemera tou Kyriou’. That means that Paul said that the spirit of the man who committed the gross sexual immorality may be saved in the DAY OF THE LORD (after judgement).
Or it had to be that he repented for this sin during his lifetime, and stopped having sexual affairs with his mother….
Ton,
Thank you. If you read the text more carefully, it reads, τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ, “the day of the Lord Jesus.” This is the same as “the day of Christ,” not “the day of the Lord.” Paul never taught a believer of his gospel could lose salvation. Those who believed the gospel of the kingdom could, hence Jesus statement that one had to endure to the end to be saved. This assumed one would go through the Tribulation.
Hi Don,
1) I checked it once again, but 1 Corinthians 5:5 reads “in the day of the Lord”, as wel in the Greek text analysis as in the Greek-English interlinear.
2) In my opinion there are no two gospels, that’s a false dichotomy. Paul preached about the Kingdom as wel (like Jesus and the other apostles were preaching grace). See for instance in Acts 20: 24-27 > “But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.” Paul said furthermore, that those who worked with him were “coworkers for the kingdom of God” (Col 4:11)
3) How can you say that Paul never taught a believer of his gospel could lose salvation!? He constantly warned his audience, that it was not a done deal. He taught that people who practice ungodly behavior will not have an inheritance in God’s kingdom, for instance in Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5
Like you say Jesus said that one had to endure to the end to be saved, but that is exactly what Paul preached also: “This is a trustworthy saying: IF we died with Him, we will also live with Him; IF WE ENDURE, we will also reign with Him; IF we deny Him, He will also deny us. (2 Timothy 2:11-12). We are in the proces of being saved, the ‘ifs’ indicate it is conditional, it is depending on our response, our obedience or disobedience. “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (Romans 13:8)
Ton,
1. There’s a textual variant in the translation. The text says “day of the Lord Jesus,” the same as the “day of Christ.” See 1 Corinthians 1.8; 2 Corinthians 1.14.
2. Paul’s preaching of the kingdom of God was not the gospel of the kingdom. Paul’s use of the phrase was broader. The kingdom of God encompasses all the saved in whatever program, Israel, Church, etc. If there were not two gospels for a time, Acts 15 makes no sense and there was no need for a council. See my article, The Great Hinge.
3. Galatians 5.21 and Ephesians 5.5 refer to unbelievers, not believers. It is under the gospel of the kingdom that one had to endure to be saved. That assumed one would go through the Tribulation. This has nothing with those who have believed Paul’s gospel. 2 Timothy 2.11-12 has to do with rewards, not eternal life. Read the next verse.
Hi Don,
I commented on your last reaction, but it appeared not on this page for moderation.
Have you deleted my e-mailadres?
Ton,
I commented on your 4/30 comment but have seen nothing since.
Hi Don,
Then I guess it has gone to outer space… So I wrote it again. Hopefully, it will arrive this time.
1. I referred to the Greek text and the English-Greek interlinear on 1 Corinthians 5:5 that states ‘the day of the Lord’, and you seem to take a translation that is the most fitting to your assumptions (trying to translate yourself out of an uncomfortable reality)
2. Are you serious Don? Why should it be, that the Kingdom of God our Lord Jesus talked about in all of its aspects (for instance in John 18:36 or Luke 8:10), is something different than the Kingdom of God that Paul writes about in his letters? If that were so, Paul certainly had used another term. Our God is not a God of confusion.
And why is it, that the only reason you can come up with for a council in Acts 15 is your postulation of two gospels?! They held a council to make clear that ALL the apostles and elders, rejected the Judaizers who tried to convince the believers in the one true gospel (especially Paul’s converts far away from Jerusalem), that they should be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses before they could be saved. The meeting in Acts 15 spoke against that false gospel of the Judaizers (i.e. the unbelievers) in unity. And Paul did that again in Galatians 5:1-6
3. No, Paul is warning believers in Galatians 5.21 and Ephesians 5.5 that who keep practicing such deeds and hold on to that, will not inherit the Kingdom. That’s because they will be accounted as the children of disobedience (unbelievers). When I also come up with Romans 8:13 to prove that, you negate that. That doesn’t fit in your two gospel theory, so you simply skip that.
We gentiles were crafted in the olive tree as wild branches, so we are under the same conditions as believing, born-again Jews were. The body of Christ comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. So what counted for the Jewish believer counts for us gentile believers as well. “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called: one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all…” -Ephesians 4:4-6
So 2 Timothy 2.11-12 is not about rewards, it is about eternal life.. And the next verse you are referring to, 2 Timothy 2:12, is one of the most misinterpreted verses in the Bible. A lot of people (and you are clearly one of them) like to read it as if Jesus stays faithful to US, when we are not faithful to Him. But in reality, it states that He will be faithful to HIMSELF, if we are not faithful to Him. That means that He will DO what told us He would do, with people who don’t live their lives according to the will of the Father. He will tell them “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Matthew 7:21-23
Paul is fully in accord with that, whereby he has a great emphasis on endurance. See for instance in “Pay close attention to your LIFE and to your TEACHING. Persevere in these things, for by so doing you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” The logical implication is that if you do not, you can lose your salvation (and others around you as well). Of course, that is not what most people like to hear, but it is Biblical truth.
Ton,
1. The text I referred to is the KJV. It is not “preferred to fit my assumptions.” It fits with everything else Paul wrote, whereas the text that omits Jesus does not.
2. Paul wrote that he had to explain his gospel to the leaders in Jerusalem Galatians 2.2 (ἀνατίθημι). If they were proclaiming the same gospel why would Paul have to do this? If they were preaching the same gospel why did they say Paul’s converts were not saved—they had to be circumcised and keep the Law? Why did Paul write he receive his gospel directly from the Lord. The gospel of the kingdom was known. He did not need it to be revealed to him. Jesus had proclaimed it for 3 years and Paul knew what it was and what the 12 were teaching for years.
3. Paul wrote that those who continue in sin, God will take out (1 Corinthians 5.5, 10.6-13, 11.29-32).
The difficulty with your view is you have mixed God’s prophetic program involving Israel and the nations together with God’s secret program of the Church. You think, as most of Christendom, that Paul was an appendage to the 12, a 13th apostle, rather than God’s apostle to begin an entirely new program, the Church, the body of Christ. How was one saved in the gospels? What did the Scriptures teach? How is one saved today? Are they the same? Answer correctly and light will shine. Answer wrongly and darkness prevails.
Thank you all for this in depth study and outline! It is inspiring and thought provoking. Allow me one additional consideration for the discussion of “Lord’s day and Christ’s day”. Christ’s day is that of the Messiah, The Anointed Savior, the rescuer, the redeemer (come to redeem and rescue His own).
The Lord’s day is King, Conquerer, Righteous Ruler, conquering His enemies. I would add that Yehoshua King is (at this moment) pre-complete. His actual body is on earth still, yet to be united. AND The Scepter of Righteousness (The representational authority of Almighty God) is here, with us! We are fully authorized to utilize it. Yehoshua King left it here for us and will reclaim it at Christ’s day. THEN, with The Scepter and His body, He is completely ready to exert authority over the entire world! Amen (Come Lord, quickly!)
Ton,
I found out that if I wanted to make any progress in my (the) faith I would have to submit my “opinions” to what I actually was reading in the Scriptures. “Opinion” is a polite way of saying that you are not totally convinced. I can accept that. From the Bible: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto ANOTHER (heteros: different) GOSPEL” (Gal. 1.6). This alone suggests of ANOTHER GOSPEL. That makes TWO. If that was not enough. “But contrariwise, when they saw that the (1) GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION was committed unto me, as the (2) GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the APOSTLESHIP OF THE CIRCUMCISION, the same was mighty in me towards the GENTILES (non-Jewish/UNCIRCUMCISION)” (Gal. 2.7-8). If words mean anything, unequivocally (2) “gospels” AT THIS POINT IN TIME. This we don’t need “3 dreams and a vision” to understand. Why (after his 14 years of Gospel preaching) would Paul have to go back to the Jerusalem church to “communicate (explain) unto them THAT GOSPEL which I preach among the GENTILES (UNCIRCUMCISION)” (Gal. 2.2) IF THEY WERE PREACHING THE SAME GOSPEL? We have 2 writers (Luke in Acts 15, Paul in Galatians 2) addressing the same event. We get the event from two different sources at two different points in time. Luke, explaining more the physical (carnal) actual event. Paul, in hindsight explaining more the details surrounding the event and the spiritual (non-carnal) impact. Find, if you can, anywhere in Acts after the 15th chapter were there is specific recording of any of the Twelve preaching (the gospel of the circumcision) to anyone. I am not suggesting that they didn’t. But the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to focus on Paul’s work from chapter 15 to the end. Should we take note of that? This is a level that we must all pass by if the Scriptures are going to make any sense to us today. Why don’t we let Peter resolve the matter. “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke (Gal. 5.1) upon the neck of the disciples (what disciples?), which neither OUR fathers (whose fathers?) nor WE (who is the “we”?) were able to bear? But WE (who is the “we”?) BELIEVE that through THE GRACE (not the yoke?) of the Lord Jesus Christ WE (who is the “we”?) shall be SAVED, even as (in like manner) THEY (who is “they”?)” Acts 15.10-11. When you establish the pronouns you will realize how PROFOUND this statement was. We hear no more from Peter from this point on in Acts. Unfortunately, what Peter said was not taken seriously at the Jerusalem church. Years later from “James and all the elders” speaking to Paul: “Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which BELIEVE (what?); and they are all zealous of the law (the yoke again?)”: (Acts 21.20). When you put it all together you realize that what Paul was preaching (1 Cor. 15.1-4) was causing the recipients to experience “liberty which we have in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 2.4) that seemed to be offensive to the “certain men which came down from Judaea” (Acts 15.1). Remember from the same location where Peter said “a yoke they unable to bear”. It was “that they might bring us into bondage” (Gal. 2.4, 5.1) that tips us off as to where these “false brethren” came from. I’ve seen this story play out multiple times now in my experience. This is exactly why you must move from opinion to conviction when defining the gospel or your “liberty which you have in Christ” is in jeopardy. I apologize for the length. Blessings!
Hi Michael,
Read my reaction on Don, which I wrote again today (the first time it disappeared).
Ton,
Don’s last paragraph from the comment on May 5, 2021, at 8:12 AM, is the “bridge” many of us had to cross after many years of trying to fit the “square peg (the Church, the body of Christ, the NOW RISEN LORD JESUS CHRIST) into the round hole” (the earthly ministry “ to the circumcision” Rom. 15.8, of the THEN JESUS CHRIST). Think of how bold a statement this is. In fact, can you imagine someone getting up in a Sunday morning “church” service and reading this from their Bible? “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet NOW henceforth KNOW WE HIM NO MORE” (2 Cor. 5.16). For most, knowing “Christ after the flesh” (i.e., the Gospels) is all they know. Obviously, the point Paul was making here was that it is far more vital to know the NOW resurrected Lord Jesus Christ in His PRESENT RISEN ministry as Head of His body (the Church) in contrast to the Christ “after the flesh” and His earthly ministry among “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. In reality, this is the ONLY Christ that we can know NOW. I won’t kid you. It wasn’t for years (35?), I was “saved” and steeped in “ministry”, that I prayed a simple prayer. “Lord, after all this time I would really like to properly articulate THE GOSPEL”. Up to this point in time I was equipped with all the gimmickry the Christian religion had to offer. His answer, from His RISEN position, was 1 Cor. 15. 1-4. This is what led me over that “bridge”. Blessings!
Michael,
Nice articulation.
Something else…..You will remember at the end of the council when James asks Paul to have the Gentiles remember some other things like NOT eating strangles animals, abstaining from blood, sex before marriage, etc. He didn’t insist that the Gentiles be baptized….a really big thing for Peter and other Jews ay that time …and even many denominations today ….just a little something to think about.
Joe,
Interesting also is no mention of baptism at the council as necessary for salvation, only circumcision and keeping the Law. Evidence water baptism had ceased?
Joe,
There is a awful lot to unpack from Acts 15. How about all that Paul recounts as the resolution of the “conference” was: “Only they (pillars at Jerusalem) would that we should remember the poor; the same which I (Paul) also forward to do” (Gal. 2.10)? What happened to “ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: ” (Acts 15.29)? Was Paul sensing something that wasn’t spoken? Blessings!
It appears to me that Paul addressed some of these issues in Romans 14 with his discourse on ‘doubtful things’. I imagine fornication wasn’t a doubt thing.
1 Th 1:10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
Jesus will deliver us from the wrath (orge) G3709 that is to come. It doesn’t say tribulation (thlibo) G2346. Paul uses thlibo in 1 Th 3:4, therefore he knew the difference in meaning between the two words. There are numbers of other scriptural references that build a strong case that the two words have significant differences in meaning. We are saved from wrath, not tribulation. We must endure tribulation.
“For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.” 1Th 3:4
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow (TRIBULATION) is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Narrow is the greek word thlibo, G2346. This can be interpreted as to press, a compressed way, narrow, straitened, contracted or metaphorically to trouble, afflict distress, and suffer tribulation.
Melik,
Jesus will deliver members of the Church, the body of Christ, from the Tribulation, which is God’s wrath. God revealed this as early as Psalm 2. “Then he will speak to them in his wrath (ἐν ὀργῇ αὐτοῦ, LXX)” Psalm 2.5. Words must be translated in context. A word doesn’t mean the same thing in every context. If it did you must translate ἐκκλησία as “church” in Acts 19.32, 39, 41.
My understanding of Psalm 2 is about how God is going to punish the ethnos ἔθνος G1484 for their wicked vain, (pagan), practices. I believe that this Psalm is prophetic of the end times. I don’t see how it’s about God’s anointed (Jesus) punishing his ecclesia, church, body, assembly of believers who have faith in him, especially since his church is not going to gather together against his anointed one, v2. In v5 wrath is appropriately used, which can also be reasoned to mean anger. I understand how words don’t mean the same thing in every context, that has nothing to do with the point I made. You can’t get around the fact that ὀργή and θλίβω are two different words, and no matter what context you provide they will not mean the same thing. The examples you provided for the word ἐκκλησία simply means assembly, as translated in the KJV. It’s not complicated, or up for debate. It seems your are trying to get off topic rather address the points in my fist comment. Paul clearly says we should suffer tribulation 1Th 3:4. Jesus says clearly that we will go through tribulation, Mat. 24:9 and he that endure unto the end the same shall be saved, v13. Immediately after the tribulation shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, v30.
… Only man made doctrine says otherwise.
“He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” Joh 8:47
Melik,
Psalm 2 is God’s prophetic plan. Jewish theology consisted of two major themes: God’s rule and God’s wrath. Psalm 2 is a short summary of Jewish theology, God’s prophetic plan. The Church is not present for it had not been revealed. As I have written, Jesus delivers the Church from wrath by His return at the Rapture. My point with ἐκκλησία was simply that words have to be interpreted based on context. In other words, you cannot simply say because Paul used the word ὀργή rather than θλῖψις, he did not mean the Tribulation. The context clearly shows this was exactly what he meant. Jesus’ words about enduring to the end was for those who will endure the Tribulation. What that meant was not taking the mark of the Beast. For most, such endurance will mean death. That is what he meant when He said the one who loses his life for His sake will save it and the one who saves his life will lose it.
I have been reading the replies in this thread and am amazed that the obvious has been sorely missed in some of the posts made. We need to get the pegs right regardless of the debate cited in these posts on translation errors.
PEG 1:
End time prophecy was “for the Jewish nation, NOT THE CHURCH!” This is clearly ratified by the author of the scriptures I. E “the living God himself”. The latter is specifically verified in the seventy week prophecy in Daniel 9:21-27 where Daniel stated in vrs 20 “while I was…. Confessing my sin and the sin of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL” and Gabriel’s response in vrs 24 “SEVENTY WEEKS ARE DETERMINED UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy”.
To those who are enlightened, the seventieth week (a period of seven years) is still to come, and given the fact that this was broken up into two 3 and a half year periods so clearly recorded in Revelations 6 to 19:11-16 (the second advent of Christ), the above clearly endorses that this prophecy was for…. I repeat “the Jewish nation and NOT THE CHURCH!”
PEG 2:
The old testament prophets ONLY saw the two advents of Christ. Advent 1: HIS incarnation and death (they were not shown his resurrection)-THIS WAS FULFILLED in Mathew, mark and Luke (to include the church in the prophecies made by Christ in math24, mark13 and luke21 is specious error AS THE CHURCH WAS ONLY FORMED LATER IN ACTS AFTER CHRIST’S RESURRECTION – refer my comments in PEG 3 below). Advent 2: HIS appearing in Revelation 19:11-16 and the subsequent 1000 year kingdom dispension. The dispensation of grace, in which we now live was totally hidden from the old testament prophets. Paul mentioned this as a mystery which has now been revealed (feel free to do a word study to confirm this fact). This dispensation of grace ends with the rapture, WHICH IS ONLY FOUND IN PAULINE TEACHING, Romans to Hebrews (I refuse to enter into any debate on whether or not Paul was the author of Hebrews!!). Furthermore, Paul’s interaction with the JEWISH apostles resulted in the mutual agreement that Peter’s gospel was to the Jews and Paul’s gospel was to the gentiles… Please feel free to read the scriptures which will verify this fact.
PEG 3:
THE CHURCH (body of Christ) was only formed in the historical book of Acts, AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST. Acts 2 – Jewish apostles, Acts 8 – Samaritans (with whom the jews refused to have any dealings with), Acts 10 – gentiles (with whom the jews refused to have anything to do with) and Acts 19 – John’s disciples (who were engaged in the baptism of Jewish national repentance). At each of the latter events the baptism of the spirit was evident with tongues (“glossa” = known languages clearly understood by the hearers, and not gibeldy goobeldy goo!). This was the living God supernaturally ratifying that the church (his body) was now formed and was confirmed by Paul in 1 Cor 12:13 “For by one [Holy] Spirit we were (VERB IS PAST TENSE) all baptized into “one BODY” (NOT “THE BODY” AS IF IT ALREADY EXISTED) [spiritually transformed—united together] whether Jews or Greeks (Gentiles), slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit [since the same Holy Spirit fills each life].
PEG 4:
The last seventieth week, which has not yet occurred and as I have established above is prophetic event for the JEWISH NATION AND NOT THE CHURCH (HIS body) and which is recorded as a 7 year period in revelations 6 to 19:11, is described in scripture by the following synonyms:
1. The tribulation.
2. The time of JACOB’S trouble.
3. The DAY of God’s wrath.
4. The DAY of the Lord.
5. The DAY of vengeance of our God.
6. The seventieth week.
Allow me to eludidate.
When Christ began his earthly ministry in Luke 4:14-19, HE was given the scroll of Isaiah and turned to Isaiah 61:1,2….HE read these verses and ended off at “to preach the acceptable YEAR of the Lord”, he then closed the scroll at a comma. Read Isaiah 61:2 and here is what follows after the comma “and the DAY of vengeance of our God”. To the enlightened, this is extremely significant!
The DAY of the Lord which the old testament prophets spoke of, is a very dark period for the JEWISH NATION….NOT THE CHURCH (HIS body). Revelations clearly specifies this day in a few places. 6:16 “wrath if the Lamb” (at the opening of the 6th seal), 6:17 “the great day of his wrath is come” (at the opening if the sixth seal) , 14:10 “drink of the wine of the wrath of God”, 15:1 “for in them (last 7 plagues) is filled up the wrath of God” and 19:15 “HE treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God (Christ at his second advent).
As end time prophecy IS FOR THE JEWISH NATION AND NOT THE CHURCH (HIS body) – note that the DAY of the Lord IS Prophecy, Paul in 1 thess 5:1-11 wanted to correct the error which had seeped in regarding the DAY of the Lord having come…. Read this very carefully and note verse 9 “For God hath not appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus CHRIST”. This verse is in the context of Paul correcting the error that the DAY of the Lord (synonym for the DAY of God’s WRATH) had come…. Paul clearly stated that we (the church-his body) “hath not been appointed to WRATH!!!!”
PEG 5:
Christ’s personal appearing (parousia 1Thess4:15 and 2Thess2:1) to gather his saints to himself “caught up to meet THE LORD IN THE AIR (rapture-not a biblical term but our term we use to explain 1Thess 4:14-17, 2Thess2:1 and 1Cor15:51-52) AND Christ’s appearing in glory with the armies of heaven in Rev19:11-16 ARE CLEARLY TWO TOTALLY SEPARATE EVENTS.
TO SEE THEM AS ONE EVENT IS UTTERLY INCOMPATIBLE WHEN READING THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE!
The context of Paul’s teaching in the sequence of events of 2Thess2:1-12 are inexorably tied at the hilt to 1Thess4:15-17 (this event confirmed and verified as mystery in 1Cor15:51-52), followed by Paul’s correction of the error that the Day of the Lord (a prophetic event only applicable to the Jewish nation AND NOT THE CHURCH) had come in 1Thess:5:1-11.
The crux of 2Thess2:1-12 lies very clearly exposed to the Spirit enlightened mind in vrs 6,7. The pronoun HE used in vrs7 is qualified in vrs 6 as “one who knows” when the wicked one might be revealed in his time. Only when the HE in vrs7 is taken up out of the way, will the wicked one be revealed. “Only the living God knows when it is the right time for the wicked to revealed” …. Therefore it’s stands to reason that HE can only be attributed to the God head…. My conviction is that HE is God the Holy Spirit and when HE is taken out the way, ONLY THEN WILL THE WICKED ON BE REVEALED. If our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit… And HE is taken up BEFORE the wicked one is revealed, he most certainly not leave his temples behind!!
UNAPOLOGETIC CONCLUSION
I am a pre-tribulationist, not because I feel the need to wear some obscure title, BECAUSE IT IS VERY CLEARLY TAUGHT IN GOD’S WORD!
As each reader has the God given free moral agency to choose what they want to believe, it’s okay, because my heavenly Father is epitomy of utter mercy and grace.
I need no further for clarity on this issue, as I have turned out of eschatology AVENUE, and am now and each now which may still be given to me, to pursue the very difficult road less traveled:
Christ’s call to “abide (now moment verb) IN Me” (i.e practical now moment intimacy in union and communion with HIM) John 15:1-8
Paul’s anointed injunction” that I may KNOW (now moment verb ginosko-not head knowledge but in practical now moment experience) HIM” Phil 3:10
“Looking (now moment verb aphoao-consider attentively) unto Jesus Heb12:2
And so many more scriptures calling me into the loving intimacy each now moment with the one who gave himself for me so that I may LIVE IN HIM!! A difficult journey as I tussle alongside Paul’s titanic struggle with the flesh in Romans 7.
The funny thing is… That my years traveled down eschatology avenue never helped me one iota to enjoy this intimate now moment relationship with HIM.
May the Revelation of Christ in you, become a growing and dynamic reality in each of your now moments which might still be yours
Stephen
Stephen,
Good! Slight correction: prophecy is for Jews and Gentiles, not Jews alone. Jews are the centerpiece but includes Gentiles. No prophecy for the Church (except the Rapture, which removes us from God’s prophetic plan).
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