How “Near” is the Day of the Lord?

131 thoughts on “How “Near” is the Day of the Lord?”

1. Paul Miller June 24, 2015 at 9:38 am

   Thanks for the new article,Don!

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   1. doctrine Post authorJune 24, 2015 at 11:23 am

      Paul,
      Wow–fast discovery. Thanks.

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2. Elaine June 26, 2015 at 2:20 pm

   Hi Don,
   Can’t wait to read this new article! I’ve read all your articles over and over and can’t begin to tell you how much I’ve benefited from them and been blessed by them.
   Thank you so much for all your hard work and research and for giving your time so generously and patiently in answering people’s questions also.
   Elaine

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   1. doctrine Post authorJune 26, 2015 at 2:39 pm

      Elaine,
      Thank you for your most kind words. Grace and peace.

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3. becky June 27, 2015 at 11:28 am

   So Don, is there no hint as to the Day of the Lord? Does the absolute moral decay in these “last days” play into “signs” of His coming?

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   1. doctrine Post authorJune 28, 2015 at 8:19 am

      Becky,
      Jesus said that the days prior to His coming will be like the days of Noah (Genesis 6). We are rapidly approaching a similar environment. See my article, When Will the Lord Return for more on this.

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      1. becky June 28, 2015 at 11:39 am

         Thanks so much. Of course! I used to look at those passages of the days of Noah in the gospels as timing of the pretrib rapture. Then with my new understanding of dispensations, I realized that these passages were about the time of tribulation and His second coming. With your answer, it just hit me that although these passages were not specifically about the rapture, because it was not yet revealed, these do indeed give us a hint of the timing of the rapture because it is pretrib. Basically, I just made a connection, haha! Wow, this is awesome…….

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4. Marg August 23, 2015 at 2:05 pm

   I also thank you, Don, for all your work, which is so educational and beneficial! In March 2015, I ‘stumbled’ onto your website while searching for a certain answer. On the 9th of March, I read ten of your articles throughout the day. My amazement turned to joy; my heart got happier and lighter with each of them. “Born-and-raised” as I was in the church, in your articles I immediately recognized truths I’d not comprehended but always desired. My burdens of tradition and misapplication fell away. What freedom! Praise the Lord! Thank you, Don, for turning on the light. Since March, I’ve read and reread all your articles. At first, I didn’t want to read your reader’s responses. I didn’t want to be distracted, I thought, and I didn’t like the argumentative ‘attitude’ that some had. Ha, ha! :) Then I realized that I needed to read on, because your answers clarified my understanding. I also found a ‘rightly-dividing’ church in my area, and am regularly attending there.

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   1. doctrine Post authorAugust 23, 2015 at 2:36 pm

      Marg,
      Thank you. It is for those such as yourself that I write–those who wish to be free from the yoke of traditon and religion to understand the Scriptures, truly live the Christian life, and enjoy the inexhaustible grace of God (Galatians 5.1).

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5. b wellskopf October 13, 2015 at 5:43 pm

   Hi Don,
   I first of all want to say how much I appreciate all the work you are doing to spread the gospel and help people better understand Scripture.
   I too believe that everyone will eventually see Jesus in His glory and will bow down and confess that He is Lord, but in the context of the “Parable of the Fig Tree” and elsewhere I believe that an untranslatable (in Latin or English) particle “an” contained in this statement explains what Jesus truly meant. I am not a Greek scholar, in fact I’ve never taken Greek, but here is what I found from a lexicon at biblehub.com
   an: usually untranslatable, but generally denoting supposition, wish, possibility or uncertainty
   Original Word: ἄν
   Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle
   Transliteration: an
   Phonetic Spelling: (an)
   Short Definition: an untranslatable word that makes a statement contingent
   Definition: an untranslatable word (under the circumstances, in that case, anyhow), the general effect of which is to make a statement contingent, which would otherwise be definite: it is thus regularly used with the subjunctive mood.
   I believe this little word “an” makes the fulfillment to the generation at that time conditional upon the repentance of the nation of Israel. I believe Jesus was saying the same thing in regards to John the Baptist when He said: “And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.” Mt 11:14. That gigantic “IF” also shows more of this conditional nature of the promise to “this generation”. Obviously we know the nation of Israel rejected her King and “this generation” did pass away, not the race granted but the nation who was supposed to be God’s conduit for blessing the world. Thanks be to God that He now offers salvation by His grace apart from Israel as revealed to and through Paul! (Rom 9- 11)
   It seems like you are saying the same thing in the section “Understanding the Kingdom Offer” but then your explanation of “nearness” right after that strained my common sense. I know that “God’s watch” is different and “a day is like a thousand years” to the Lord, but Jesus was talking to everyday humans. With almost 2000 years and still no Kingdom, I’m wondering if the “conditional” nature of Jesus’ statement is the correct explanation for “nearness” that in hindsight isn’t near at all. If I’m wrong I’ll bow my common sense to how “How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways”.
   What do you think brother?

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   1. doctrine Post authorOctober 14, 2015 at 7:45 am

      b wellskopf,
      Thank you. The offer of the kingdom was conditional upon Israel’s repentance. The generation that endures the Tribulation (that will be “this generation” of Matthew 24) will repent and the Lord will return. His return remains conditional to Jewish repentance (Matthew 23.37). One has to account for the words of the prophets and their use of “near.” Joel said in the 9th century B.C. that the Day of the Lord was near. We have to have a reasonable explanation for what that meant. In terms of man’s accounting of time 800+ years had passed by the time Jesus arrived. That’s not near. But in terms of God’s clock, it was. It still is, 2,000 years later.

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      1. DJ March 30, 2024 at 5:24 pm

         Don: I’m confused. Do the Jews’ prophesies in OT say their messiah was to die or rule?

         I thought the OT predicted and prophesized the sacrifice of the lamb?

         Or an earthly ruler?

         Thanks.

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         1. doctrine Post authorApril 2, 2024 at 3:27 pm

            DJ,
            They say both.

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6. amigodana October 24, 2015 at 7:10 pm

   You forgot to talk about how God defines a day!!!

   2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

   (Psalms 90:4) “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”

   I will choose Gods interpretations over yours.

   Psalms 84:10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

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   1. doctrine Post authorOctober 24, 2015 at 7:13 pm

      amigodana,
      It appears you did not read the article. The whole argument is built upon how God defines a day.

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7. John Duryea October 27, 2015 at 8:49 am

   Don,
   Thank you for putting it all together.
   The questions I had about what would happen to the Lord if Israel repented etc., were nicely included in this one, concise, well researched article.
   I appreciate how you see God interacting with humanity via programs – beginning with Adam, then Noah, then Abraham, etc. Do you have an article that refers to God’s programs throughout history?
   With appreciation,
   John

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   1. doctrine Post authorOctober 27, 2015 at 8:57 am

      John,
      Thank you. You might want to look at Framework of Scripture and Summary of the Plan of God.

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8. RonG December 18, 2015 at 1:02 am

   G’Day Don,
   Another truely enlightening article. Thank you.
   I have a question inrespect to the fulfilment of prophecy in this age of grace.
   Is there any part of the prophecy program given by God to Israel being fulfilled throughout this period of grace or the Church age we are currently in?
   Many who adhere to the mid-acts dispensational position state that absolutely no prophecy is or will be fulfilled in this current “mystery” period or age or administration.
   The first thing that comes to my mind is that if we accept that the age of grace and the Church, the Body of Christ was born with Paul’s salvation and subsequent revelation given to him by the Glorified Jesus from heaven, surely the distruction of the Temple in 70 AD was prophecy being fulfilled in the age of grace.

   “Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.””
   ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

   What about Israel’s reforming as a Nation, the rise of Russia, Iran, Turkey and so on?

   What are your thoughts on this?
   Grace and Peace
   RonG

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   1. doctrine Post authorDecember 18, 2015 at 7:44 am

      RonG,
      Thank you. One can argue that 70 A.D. marked the end of the prophetic program, the time in which Israel is judicially set aside, and I think that’s what mid-Acts folks would say. It was the final judgment on the nation. During this period both programs operated although in terms of the gospel, the gospel of the kingdom ended at the Council of Jerusalem. What we’re seeing now is the stage preparation for the advent of the Beast and the final seven years. It may be too strong to say no prophecy is being fulfilled but certainly the age of grace is not governed by prophecy. The only prophetic event related to the Church is the Rapture.

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9. Nathanael Leiws December 27, 2015 at 8:21 pm

   As a theologian, I am very concerned about a number of blatantly false statements on this article, with the most stupendously false ones being in two back to back sentences. You say:
   We also find no mention of the Church in the Gospels. Peter only knew about God’s prophetic plan for Israel. He knew nothing of the Church and addressed only Jews in Acts.

   Firstly, the actual word church appears in Matthews gospel a number of times in chapters 16 and 18, and in the first instance it was actually addressed to Peter by name (16.18 – And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.). Thus this one single verse destroys both your statement that the church doesn’t appear in the gospels, and also that Peter knew nothing of the church. He absolutely did, because Jesus himself had told him about it and told him that either he, or his faith statement would be the foundation of the church!
   Furthermore, there a number of parables that explicitly link the rejection of the kingdom by Israel with the kingdom being given to ‘others’ who will be worthy of it, meaning the church.

   Secondly, it is a complete falsehood to say that Peter only addressed Jews in Acts (and untrue to imply or say, as you do elsewhere, that Peter only got any notion about Gentiles being saved from Paul). The order of events is clear – Peter himself was the first apostle to go to a Gentile, in Acts 10. Up until that point, Paul, although converted, is only recorded as having been preaching to the Jews (Acts 9). Other Christians also started to preach the gospel to the Gentiles away from the land of Israel (Acts 11) – the text is not clear whether this was before or after Peter’s encounter with a Gentile, it only says it was people after they had been scattered at the martyrdom of Stephen in Acts 7, but it seems to mean it was sometime afterwards, because as soon as they heard about it, the Jerusalem church (with Peter and or James at the head) sent Barnabas to investigate, and as soon as he saw the good work he went to go and get Paul (Acts 11).

   Jesus specifically appointed Peter and / or his faith statement to be the foundation of the church, so how can anyone who claims to be a bible teacher claim that ‘Peter’ knew nothing of the church, even many years after he was the founding member and leader of the church that Jesus instituted in the gospels?

   What is more, when we look at the account of Acts 15, we find that Paul and Barnabas told what God had done through their ministry to the Gentiles, but made no theological advocacy. The theological advocacy for Gentiles being included in the already existing church as Gentiles was done BEFORE they gave their testimony by Peter, the apostle to the Jews who allegedly, according to you, only addressed Jews – yet his theological advocacy for Gentiles was based directly on his experience in preaching to Gentiles himself. Then after Paul had spoken of his experiences only, further theological advocacy came from James, Jesus’ half brother and by now the leader of the Jerusalem church, and what is more, he justified it by citing an Old Testament prophecy concerning Gentiles and applied it to the church, despite your claims that the Old Testament never teaches anything about the church. Clearly, these Jewish Christians saw things very differently indeed to you, and it is their deliberations and decisions which are recorded for us as nothing less than Holy Scripture.

   On a side note, there is also Paul’s account of Peter’s behaviour in Galatians 2. If, like I do, you believe this was written shortly before the council in Acts 15, then this also indicates that Peter was having fellowship with Gentiles BEFORE the Acts 15 council.

   In short, the very foundational premises of your argument are flat out contradictory to the clear testimony of Scripture, even on very basic factual grounds, and you need to seriously, soberly and completely re-examine your position sir, because you are leading people astray into false teaching.

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   1. doctrine Post authorDecember 28, 2015 at 9:47 am

      Nathaniel,
      Many claim to be theologians but do not know the Scriptures. On your points: 1) The word ἐκκλησία simply means a group of people. Context determines its specific meaning. For example, see Acts 19.32. Only Paul taught the Church, the body of Christ. See my article, The Church (the Body of Christ), “others worthy” refers to a future generation of Jews who will accept Christ (Romans 11.26). Jesus and the Twelve had no ministry to Gentiles (Matthew 10.5-6). 2) Peter addressed no Gentiles at Pentecost or following. In fact, he addressed no Gentiles (with the exception of Cornelius in Acts 10, after Paul was saved, according to Acts 11.19). Galatians was written after Acts 15. Paul’s controversy with Peter occurred after the Council. That’s what made it so tragic and why Paul crushed him. See my articles, Paul: Chief of Sinners?, Why Paul?, The Christian Myth, etc. You believe a myth along with the vast majority in Christendom. Myths occurs from lack of reading and study. Read you Bible and you will find the things I write are Scriptural.

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10. Bruce Peters March 22, 2016 at 8:40 am

    I have never seen so much begging of the question in my life. The kingdom of Jesus Christ is not an earthly kingdom in earthly Jerusalem, where Jesus sits on David’s golden throne. Jesus and John the Baptist both said the kingdom was “at hand” just as Jesus came on the scene and began His ministry. What Jesus said, He meant and He did not change it – nor did any man change it. When Jesus died, rose and then ascended, His kingdom came. The disciples had a hard time understanding this at first as well, and for some reason many people still don’t want to face the facts.

    Jesus DIED on the cross, to usher in His kingdom. He came to DIE. He did not come to sit on a throne with a golden scepter. He did exactly what He came to do, it was 100% fulfilled. He now REIGNS at the highest place in the universe, over all things in heaven and in earth (Eph 1:20-22) BECAUSE of His death (Matt 28:18, Phil 2:8-9).

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    1. doctrine Post authorMarch 22, 2016 at 12:58 pm

       Bruce,
       The Lord instructed His disciples to pray, “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on EARTH as it is in heaven.” The Jews had no idea of dying and going to heaven. Not a single Scripture supports such an idea. Their hope lay in an earthly kingdom in which Israel would be supreme among the nations of the earth (Deuteronomy 28.1, 13) with the Messiah sitting on the throne of David. David’s throne is in Jerusalem. Jesus is presently seated at the right hand of His Father’s throne (Psalm 110.1) and will remain so until He returns to EARTH. At that time He will sit upon His own throne, the throne of David, and reign over Israel and the world (Zechariah 14.8-9; Psalm 132.11-12; Isaiah 9.7; Jeremiah 23.5-6). The OT prophecies will be fulfilled. The idea of dying and going to heaven and a heavenly destiny and kingdom was unknown until Paul. It is a Pauline doctrine for the Church, not for Israel. What you have written reveals you do not understand the purpose of Christ’s earthly coming or ministry (Romans 15.8). Yes, He came to die for our sins. But for Israel, He came to fulfill the covenant promises which revolved around the earthly kingdom. That’s Jewish theology. That’s the entire Old Testament! Why did it not come? It did not come because Israel refused to repent. When they do, and they will, He will return and set it up (Matthew 23.37-39).

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       1. Bruce June 12, 2016 at 4:52 pm

          I didn’t say anything about dying and going to heaven, so I don’t see how that’s relevant here.

          //Their hope lay in an earthly kingdom in which Israel would be supreme among the nations of the earth//

          Well, Jesus proved that their hope was misguided.

          //Jesus is presently seated at the right hand of His Father’s throne (Psalm 110.1) and will remain so until He returns to EARTH.//

          Don’t you DARE insinuate that where Jesus sits now is a lower place than the highest glory. Don’t you EVEN GO THERE. Jesus is seated at the highest position in the universe, according to Phil 2:9. And the reason He sits there? Because “he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Dispies think Jesus’ death was kind of important for an entity called the church, but it wasn’t really all THAT important. After all, “Israel” is going to be saved a different way.

          //At that time He will sit upon His own throne,//

          He sits on His own throne now. Again, you are on dangerous ground claiming that somehow Jesus (WHO IS GOD BY THE WAY) sits in a lesser spot than He will someday. What about Ephesians 1:21: “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion”. ALL means ALL.

          You also greatly err by teaching that Jesus can only reign over the earth if He sits on an earthly throne. Jesus is bound by where He sits????? what?????? So when Jesus comes down here and sits, in your fantasy semi-golden age of 1000 years, will He cease to be King of heaven, since He isn’t sitting up there anymore?

          You are grossly wrong.

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          1. doctrine Post authorJune 12, 2016 at 7:37 pm

             Bruce,
             Apparently, you did not look at any of the Scriptures I provided. They are against your view. Like so many, tradition is dearer to you than the Scriptures. Psalm 110.1 states Christ is seated at the right hand of His Father’s throne, not on His own throne. He will remain there until His enemies become His footstool. Do you think Christ rules the earth now? Do you understand Matthew 6.10? Christ’s kingdom will be an earthly, political kingdom (Zechariah 14.9). Christ has conquered sin and death but He is not recognized by all creation as Lord. Philippians 2.9 will take place but it hasn’t yet. If you think it has, read today’s newspaper.

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             1. Bruce Peters June 13, 2016 at 10:28 am

                I read all of the scriptures as I have dozens and hundreds of times before. Please dispense with the condescending tone, ok? I realize you feel defensive but I am not a child.

                Yes Christ rules the earth now, don’t you believe that? It says in Philippians 2:9 that God HAS highly exalted Him. Not WILL exalt Him. In Matthew 28 Jesus says that all power was given unto Him. Eph 1:20-21 states that God raised Jesus from the dead and set Him “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come”. It doesn’t get much clearer than that.

                I couldn’t care less what the newspaper says. The entire world could refuse to bow to Jesus as King and that doesn’t change a thing. You might as well claim that God has never had control of this world, because sin has been around since Adam. Are you sure you want to ignore these plain scriptures based on what you SEE?

                Jesus is king now and putting down all of His enemies, the last enemy being death. Don’t forget, sir, that you were once an enemy of Jesus Christ. Your sins you commit right now are against Him. Is God working in your life right now? Is Jesus reigning in your life all the time?

                You are the first person I have run into that doesn’t believe Jesus is King of kings, yet claims to be a Bible believer.

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                1. doctrine Post authorJune 13, 2016 at 11:21 am

                   Bruce,
                   I wish you well but the Scriptures do not support the idea Christ is running the governments of the world today. The god of this world (Satan) is running the governments of the world (Luke 4.5-6; 2 Corinthians 4.4; Romans 16.20; 1 Thessalonians 2.18) and will continue to do so until the Lord returns (Revelation 19). The Scriptures you cited are prophetic futures. They are realities as far as God is concerned but have not yet occurred in human history. My intent is not to be condescending. Do you believe Christ will reign on the earth? That is the test of being a Bible-believer. Your statement I do not believe Jesus is King of kings is untrue. It is sad you resort to falsity to demean me. It also shows you have not read my articles.

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                   1. Bruce Peters June 13, 2016 at 12:10 pm

                      Don, I am sorry I am not trying to speak falsely. You are confusing me. Either Jesus is the King right now, and God is in control, or He is not. This has been true since the Garden of Eden. God does not force people to bow down. Was God in control during Noah’s day? Of course, yet the world was filled with wickedness and violence.

                      “The Scriptures you cited are prophetic futures.” How can you say that when the language is not prophetic? God raised Jesus from the dead and set Him at the highest place in the heavenlies. If you say that is yet future, then you deny that Jesus reigns over all kings today. Yet you tell me you do believe He is King. I don’t see how you can believe it, but not believe it. I do not wish to offend you. Please explain how that can be. And explain why Jesus has to physically be sitting on earth to reign over it. If Jesus is bound by where He sits, then if He sits here He won’t be king of heaven, by your logic.

                      Again I want to stress that you seem to be applying your own common sense of what the reign of Jesus should look like, to whether He is reigning. Is that really reading the Bible and just believing it? I don’t think so. You tell me that Jesus isn’t physically sitting on a throne in Jerusalem so therefore He isn’t in charge of the governments. Yet Satan isn’t sitting on any throne either. Exactly why does Satan get to rule without a physical throne, but Jesus doesn’t?

                      Yes, I do believe in a day that Jesus will physically be with us, reigning just as He does now, after He resurrects the dead and casts death and hell into the lake of fire. But that will last forever, not just 1000 years, and there will be NO death, NO sin.

                      “The god of this world (Satan) is running the governments of the world”

                      Only those that men have allowed him to run. And it isn’t that Satan is god of the planet earth. The word there is “age”. Surprised you don’t know that since you claim to read the Greek.

                      Satan is not the god of this planet as if Jesus has turned over control to him. Rather, people can choose to make Satan their god. People can make gods all day long, that doesn’t mean they actually ARE gods. The Bible also says that people make their appetites their god (Phl 3:19). Do you see the point?

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                      1. doctrine Post authorJune 13, 2016 at 1:11 pm

                         Bruce,
                         The argument here is not about God being sovereign. Of course He is. He controls everything. The argument here is whether Jesus is ruling and reigning over the earth. The rule of Christ on earth is not about my common sense. It is about what the Scriptures reveal. The Scriptures explicitly describe His reign. Read Isaiah 2.1-4; 11.1-9; Zechariah 8.1-8; 14.8-11. Dozens more could be provided. The Messianic kingdom will last 1,000 years. This is what the Bible states (Revelation 20). It is the prelude to eternity, new heavens and new earth. But during those 1,000 years, God will fulfill all the OT promises and covenants to Israel. Do you really believe men are smarter than Satan? The Scriptures state he deceives men. Men serve Satan but they are not aware they are doing so. He is the god of this world (KJV). I know κόσμος and αἰών. But Matthew 4.8 reads κόσμος–world. You appear ridiculous when you write such things. These kinds of things are displeasing to the Lord.

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11. Dawn Sobczak March 23, 2016 at 3:08 pm

    Don,
    How are we to pray as the body of Christ? Does God intervene directly in our lives anymore? (I know he can do anything as God.) Can we pray for a good job? Or a healing, or for a sign from Him? Can we “hear” the Holy Spirit communicate with us about things He knows concern us?
    What does 8:28 really mean?
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    One would think I should know this stuff, but I need clarification. I get confused by other grace preachers I listen to.

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    1. doctrine Post authorMarch 24, 2016 at 10:20 am

       Dawn,
       Paul instructed us to “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5.17; 1 Timothy 2.8). We should pray about everything. Romans 8.28 means God has our best interests at heart. All things are not good but they ultimately work to that end as we are being conformed into the image of Christ (Romans 8.29).

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    2. Becky April 12, 2016 at 10:02 am

       Hi Dawn, when i get confused by teachers, I just put it on the back burner. In other words, move on to something else. The other thing you can do is take your question and address it to the Lord as a prayer. Then forget about it, knowing He will not forget to answer you.

       Many years ago, I had come to a point where i was confused by teachers, to the point i was in tears. I still remember where i was standing (in my kitchen) when i came to that point, how i was feeling. I said, Lord, there are so many teachers, who claim that what they are teaching is right, who can i trust? I heard so plain and clear, “Paul.” I even turned around because the voice was so clear. At that time, I had never heard a thing about grace teachers or those who followed Paul. I had been studying on my own for a couple years. From that day forward, I jumped right into Paul’s writings and never regretted it once. I knew the Holy Spirit had spoken to me. I didn’t try to dissect Paul’s writings from the Gospels or from the OT. I just had this hunger to study Paul. In fact, I had just started looking at a Torah keeper’s forum right about the same time. The Lord is awesome and so is His timing. I attended that forum for about eight months or so. I would search to see what Paul had to say about EVERYTHING that was said. In the end, it turned out that many of these people either despised Paul or did not regard him as an apostle. The attacks would be so ferocious, but through the struggle I stuck with Paul. That “crash course” grounded me, settled me.

       Pray about everything, be careful (anxious, take thought) for NOTHING, and that is something taught by Jesus, Paul, and Peter. We are to cast all our care on Him, and there are no rules for that:)

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12. Becky June 13, 2016 at 4:02 pm

    Thanks Don,

    I enjoyed that article very much . . . can’t wait to read the next one.

    Many Blessings.

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13. Pete June 13, 2016 at 9:02 pm

    //The argument here is whether Jesus is ruling and reigning over the earth. The rule of Christ on earth is not about my common sense. It is about what the Scriptures reveal. //

    OK but the scriptures explicitly say He is reigning now. How can you say this verse doesn’t include all kingdoms of the earth?

    Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    What does Ephesians 1 mean then, if it doesn’t mean Jesus is reigning over earth and heaven right now?

    (p.s. I realized I have a pseudonym of mine in this thread. I am not trying to trick the system. I changed this name to my other name and email. I guess I originally posted under the other name.)

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    1. doctrine Post authorJune 14, 2016 at 8:00 am

       Pete,
       How do you understand Zechariah 14.9; Jeremiah 23.5-6?

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       1. Pete June 14, 2016 at 1:37 pm

          I will answer as best I can, Ron, but you need to be fair. Why don’t you answer my questions?

          First of all, the New Testament shines the light on the Old. So something in the Old Testament, I believe, is revealed in its true meaning in the New. Zech 14:9 says “And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.” I believe “that day” was the first time Jesus came. He stood on the Mt of Olives (vs. 4). He fought the enemies of Israel – the real enemies…their sin and the devil.

          See, Israel was all about men fighting battles and making war, and winning land. Remember they wanted king Saul? God has always been about more than that. God promised Abraham the kosmos, through Jesus. Not just a strip of land by the Mediterranean. Through Jesus we ALL are blessed beyond measure. The death of Jesus at His FIRST coming was the greatest blessing and work anyone could ever do for Israel or for the world.

          In my opinion, modern dispenationalism reduces the value of Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension. It was THE finished work of Jesus for ALL…Israel first, then the Gentiles.

          Jesus IS the king over all the earth, today. Ephesians, Philippians, Matthew all say so. Galatians tells how the promises to Abraham are all fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Jeremiah was fulfilled in Christ also. “I will raise up for David a righteous Branch (Jesus) And He will reign as king and act wisely
          And do justice and righteousness in the land.” God has never forced people to bow to Him, but any Jew (and Gentile) who bows the knee can participate in these promises.

          Someday Jesus will complete His acts of overcoming all enemies, the last of which is death. You and I agree that the entire plan is not complete. Only differences are, you think the plan has 2 different parts to it for 2 different groups of people. I don’t. And you think the plan has to take place all at once, in one second. I don’t. I think Daniel 2 shows that the plan will unfold over time.

          Now…please explain why Philippians and Ephesians (and Matthew 28) all explicitly state that Jesus is king over ALL things in heaven AND in earth. And how you reconcile that with thinking this is yet future.

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          1. doctrine Post authorJune 14, 2016 at 5:08 pm

             Pete,
             This is double-talk, theological mishmash, exegetical gibberish. The kingdom has come but not really. The kingdom has come, Jesus is reigning, but not on earth as God promised. Your define Jesus’ kingship as His standing on the Mt. of Olives. Do you really think this? Can anyone really think this? Such a statement is an insult to anyone who believes the Bible. Paul wrote Abraham was heir of the world in the sense of salvation–he was the example of faith (Romans 4.13). But God promised Abraham a land with specific borders. This is repeated many times. You dismiss these promises. Your theology demands that I rip from the Bible everything from the Bible concerning Israel: Genesis 12 through Acts 8, Peter, James, Jude, John’s epistles, the book of Revelation and Hebrews. When Paul wrote about Jesus reigning (Jesus is never called King of the Church, by the way) he meant He reigns as a conqueror of sin and death. God has put all things under His feet. But that is not to say He reigns on the earth. Your theology denies all the OT promises and covenants God the Father gave to Christ regarding His rule over Israel. Your theology says “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” is hogwash. Your theology takes the OT promises and says, “Well, God really didn’t mean that.” “God did not mean wolves and lambs are really going to lie down together.” “No, that’s not literal, you can’t really believe Jesus is actually going to reign on earth!” Here’s a newsflash: Christ will reign on earth. He will reign from Jerusalem as King of the Jews and as King of kings. He will fulfill all God’s promises to Israel. When He does, the earth will not experience war. Peace will exist in the animal kingdom. The earth restored to Edenic splendor. We do not see these things because the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT reigning on the earth. How you come to the conclusion dispensationalism reduces the value of Christ’ death, resurrection, and ascension is beyond me. I’ve read many dispensationalists and only found exaltation of Christ’s work and resurrection. Let’s have no more theological pick-pocketing. Your theology is heresy. It is blasphemy. Repent and get right with the Lord, Pete.

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             1. Pete June 14, 2016 at 7:32 pm

                Don, sorry for calling you Ron, my mistake…

                //Your define Jesus’ kingship as His standing on the Mt. of Olives. Do you really think this? //

                No. I never said that, I only said that His standing on the Mt of Olives in Zechariah 14 was fulfilled when He….stood on the Mt of Olives. The mountain splitting is symbolic, but I guess you have an aversion to Biblical symbolism.

                I would be careful about tossing around words like “heresy” and “blasphemy”.

                //The kingdom has come but not really. //

                You are the one saying that. I’m not saying that. I say the kingdom has come 100%. Jesus and John both said the kingdom was “at hand” in Matthew and other places. It came, just like Jesus said, and He reigns in heaven from His heavenly throne, because of His death (Phil 2). That is David’s throne per Peter in Acts 2:34-36.

                //We do not see these things because the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT reigning on the earth. //

                There’s no Bible verse that says this anywhere, you are drawing that conclusion yourself. True, we don’t see those things yet, but the Bible clearly says Jesus reigns from heaven UNTIL all enemies are put down. Again, another question you refuse to answer: Why does Jesus have to physically be on the planet to reign over it? And, if He comes and reigns here, does that mean He is no longer reigning over heaven since He isn’t there?

                You change plain words like “near” to make them fit your doctrine. Anyone with an open heart and mind should be carefully examining WHY this is done by dispensationalists.

                One more time…please explain why Philippians and Ephesians (and Matthew 28) all explicitly state that Jesus is king over ALL things in heaven AND in earth. And how you reconcile that with thinking this is yet future.

                //I’ve read many dispensationalists and only found exaltation of Christ’s work and resurrection. //

                I agree, I attend a dispie church still. This is true except when it relates to eschatology and Israel. You guys think it’s glorious to be sure, but only one of God’s plans and temporary. I say it was THE plan, the only plan, the only way.

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                1. doctrine Post authorJune 15, 2016 at 8:02 am

                   Pete,
                   I won’t argue with you. You are a Calvinist and amillenialist. Calvinism and amillennialism is heresy. It is blasphemous because it maintains God does not keep His promises. It is false theology–as false as selling indulgences or praying people out of purgatory. The angel told Mary that God would give Christ the throne of David (Luke 1.32). David’s throne was on earth. The Lord Jesus Christ has not occupied the throne of David and will not until He returns. Amillennialists deny this. Their denial makes God out to be a liar. This is blasphemy. You might want to read my article, Hermeneutics. It reveals the error of Calvinists and amillennialists. The greatest weakness of Calvinism, however, is it denies the sovereignty of God. For Calvinists, man’s will is greater than God’s. They deny Romans 11.29. Calvinists and amillennialists deny all the OT covenants and promises made to Israel. They deny Deuteronomy 28.1, 13. They deny God will give national Israel land from the Mediterranean to the the Euphrates. This is heresy. God is sovereign. He will bring His program for Israel to completion just as He will complete His Church. The theology you have stated is Calvinism and amillennialism. It denies the word of God. I have no ill will to you. I said what I said to you not out of spite but because I wish the best for you. But the system you are following is evil. The men who teach these things are either wholly ignorant of the Scriptures and God’s sovereignity or God’s enemies. Again I say, repent. Believe the word of God.

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                   1. doctrine Post authorJune 15, 2016 at 12:31 pm

                      Pete,
                      The system is evil because is denies the word of God. It denies God’s sovereignty. It says God has not and will not keep promises He sovereignly made. Calvinists/Amillenialists deny Genesis 15.18. They deny ALL prophetic promises God made to Israel. That is evil.

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                      1. DJ March 30, 2024 at 5:06 pm

                         Don: science is saying Askenazi Jews (Khazar Turkic converts) do not have DNA that traces back to Jacob.

                         Reply ↓
                         1. doctrine Post authorApril 2, 2024 at 3:26 pm

                            DJ,
                            See https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ancient-dna-provides-new-insights-ashkenazi-jewish-history and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336798/. These studies indicate Askenazi Jews are Jews. What is your point?

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                   2. Becky June 15, 2016 at 8:32 pm

                      Hi Pete,

                      Don’t mean to intrude but . . .

                      You wrote that the //…The mountain splitting is symbolic, …//
                      If the mountain is Jerusalem (the spoil) based on Zec 14:1, the ‘mountain splitting’ may be symbolic. Now the question is, when did that occur? 70 AD? Were all nations at that battle mentioned in Zec 14:2? When did the LORD go forth and fight those nations? Is Zec 14:4 past or a future event? Was the prophesy fulfilled the day Jesu stood on the mount of olives; “Zec 14:8 ¶ And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. :9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”? Is this a past or future event?

                      Also, you wrote //…I say the kingdom has come 100%…//
                      That his “kingdom has come” isn’t clear from the following passage . . .: 1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

                      . . . although, it clearly indicates that “he must reign, . . .” so, I guess one can argue that he is reigning.

                      Acts indicates that he is in a ‘standing’ position. Shouldn’t he be ‘seated’ in order to use the ‘footstool’? Does ‘standing’ vs. ‘seated’ signify anything? To ‘reign’ shouldn’t the ruler be seen as “seated” on the throne (figuratively speaking)? I don’t know, just throwing it out there.

                      “Standing” passage: Act 7:56) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Clearly he’s in heaven but why is he ‘standing’? Perhaps this is why . . . //…We do not see these things … // yet . . . because ‘all’ had not yet been subdued? Just asking.

                      “Seated” passage: Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

                      In this passage however, a ‘high priest’ is “seated” . . . A ‘high priest’ is a mediator between God and man; is he a ruling/reigning king at this phase of God’s plan? Or is he what it says, a high priest. (I’m thinking King Melchizedek so Jesus must be a reigning king – right?) To avoid frustrating these passages one must remember that there is chronological order of things; how events must unfold; what has to happen first, etc., as well as realizing we don’t know God’s appointed time (unless it’s past of course)?

                      Then there’s Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; :13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. Here we see ‘this man’ who has ‘sat’ down . . ., yet is in expectation of his footstool (paraphrased). Is ‘this man’ is a reigning king? If so, why “wait”…? Perhaps he’s waiting on God’s timing? Why not plainly say he’s King, even if he is waiting for his footstool? You get my point? God’s timing is everything. No matter what we think – ultimately – God is right and we are wrong.

                      You also wrote //…Why does Jesus have to physically be on the planet to reign over it?//
                      Whether from heaven or from earth, it only says, “… his must reign.” Perhaps the following passages cause confusion?: Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. . . Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                      From this passage, it’s clear that someone will ‘reign on the earth,’ but from where Jesus will be co-reigning (during the 1K reign), it’s not clear to me from this translation. Perhaps a cross referenced passage or a closer study of the Greek manuscript would shed some light?

                      You also wrote // …words like “near” …//
                      When Jesus was here, he was “near” as was his “kingdom” but after he left this earth, one could claim that he/it was no longer “near”. Perhaps “near” correlates only to those who recognize him as the messiah? Just asking.

                      You wrote, //“One more time…please explain why Philippians and Ephesians (and Matthew 28) all explicitly state that Jesus is king over ALL things in heaven AND in earth.//

                      OT passages indicate that ‘the Kings are over ALL Israel.’ Israel does not recognize Jesus as the prophesied anointed messiah – their KING. This doesn’t negate who He is (or the fact that he is king), but in relation to the Nation of Israel and keeping aligned with God’s plan, (we know why) Jesus was rejected as King.

                      You also wrote, //And how you reconcile that with thinking this is yet future.”//

                      Except for possibly Zec 4:9, in the KJV, I was unable to find any passages in Philippians, Ephesians or Matthew which explicitly state that Jesus is King over all “things.” Certain passages indicate God gave him all things such as power and knowledge, and that he is “able” to subdue all things unto himself, etc., so perhaps it’s about perspective or spatial order? Afterall, doesn’t scripture teach us in Rev 4:8 . . . Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.? As I understand it, there is order in God’s plan; past, present and future; therefore, for me it’s safe to conclude that there are events that have not yet transpired; positions are pending, battles need to be fought, etc., as not all things happen simultaneously. Consequently, certain events are (or must be) relegated to the (our) future?

                      You wrote, //I agree, I attend a dispie church still. This is true except when it relates to eschatology and Israel. You guys think it’s glorious to be sure, but only one of God’s plans and temporary. I say it was THE plan, the only plan, the only way.//

                      I can’t speak to the ‘dispie’ doctrine taught at your church but all one needs to do is look to God’s word. From eternity past, God has only ever had one Plan and that is to eliminate (rectify the mess caused by) his adversary. Of course, the intricacies involved in that work are astronomical, yet Our Holy Father laid it out in scripture; each phase unfolding at various appointed times. Perhaps this is probably why some think there is more than one plan? The exaltation of Christ’s work and resurrection are central (or at the HEART of) God’s plan so I don’t know why a dispensationalist would ever dismiss it.

                      As far as end times, the bible says only God knows, we can only speculate or piece together theories based on what He has revealed to us. As for Israel, currently, all Jews/Israel (if any) are not attending Sunday services nor have all abandoned the Torah . . . this alone tells me the nation of Israel has yet to accept Jesus as their Lord, let alone their King. However, again, this does not negate the fact that he is their King as stated over the cross. As to when the administration will be inaugurated is in God’s hands.

                      Sorry for adding my two cents – I hope any of it makes sense. I know how frustrating it is to find answers to difficult questions. I’m not learned enough to find them myself and mainstream clergy seldom have substantial, consistent answers. It’s a pity.

                      Blessing and may the Holy Spirit help you find the answers you seek.

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                      1. bmariez June 28, 2016 at 9:36 am

                         Hi Becky, there are a couple of your statements i would like to respond to. You state, “When Jesus was here, he was “near” as was his “kingdom” but after he left this earth, one could claim that he/it was no longer “near”. Perhaps “near” correlates only to those who recognize him as the messiah? Just asking.”
                         In Matt 28:20, Jesus told His disciples, I am with you alway….. We must not forget about His Holy Spirit. There is also the word of faith in Romans 10:8.
                         You state, “Except for possibly Zec 4:9, in the KJV, I was unable to find any passages in Philippians, Ephesians or Matthew which explicitly state that Jesus is King over all “things.”
                         Paul writes in I Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal….immortal…invisible. And in 1Ti 6:15-16 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
                         Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
                         These verses spoken by Paul himself “specifically” refer to Jesus as an “invisible” King and a Lord. I guess the question really is, King and Lord over what/whom? Hope this helps

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                         1. doctrine Post authorJune 28, 2016 at 12:12 pm

                            bmariez,
                            Jesus, in His earthly ministry, presented himself as King of the Jews. The message to Israel was to repent for the kingdom was near. Jesus instructed his apostles to pray that the earthly kingdom of God come upon the earth (Matthew 6.10). Paul wrote that Jesus came to fulfill the promises to the fathers (Romans 15.8), the establishment of the earthly kingdom. For Paul, for Christians, the kingdom of God is heavenly and the realm of the overall rule of God. Christians do not look for an earthly kingdom as we are citizens of heaven (Philippians 3.20). But the OT promises will be fulfilled and the earthly kingdom established (Zechariah 14.9).

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14. Jack S. June 15, 2016 at 9:45 am

    Pete,

    We are all praying that you will open your eyes and choose scripture over denomination and tradition. You may be saved, but you are practicing a false doctrine.

    Please read articles on this website with an open mind and an open heart. You have to admit, you might be wrong with your Calvinist teachings; let the Holy Spirit guide you to the Truth.

    In Love…..Jack S.

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    1. Pete June 15, 2016 at 6:09 pm

       Jack S, interesting…what makes you say that I am choosing denomination and tradition over scripture? All I have said is that “near” means near. I have said that Peter proclaimed “this is that which was spoken by Joel” and that’s exactly what it meant.

       Are you REALLY praying for me Jack S? Or just trying to be kind? Or condescending? I of course value prayers, but I don’t think people should pray that others agree with them.

       I don’t even know what Calvinism is. I know a little, and what I know I 100% disagree with. What is Calvinist about what I posted?

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       1. Jafo July 12, 2017 at 11:56 pm

          Near means near! Really? When an comet misses earth by 250,000 miles it’s called a near miss. When when a car misses a person by mere inches it’s called a near miss. If near means near how can inches and miles both be defined as near? Certainly it’s the context which is used to determine what near means. It’s the same for these verses. It’s the context. The Kingdom was ‘near’ because Jesus was on earth and it could have happened. Thus it was contextually very near. But it didn’t happen. Thus, the context of ‘near’ changes to what ‘near’ means in the context of Gods plan

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15. Becky June 15, 2016 at 9:47 pm

    Peter did mean what he said, but What did Joel say?

    Joel 2:28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (“afterward” – after what? I think it’s the crucifixion but it’s not clear from the passage.) Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (“in those days” – what days? We may conclude it was during the time of Jesus, specifically, Pentecost base on Peter, but it’s not clear from the passage.) Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. (‘shew wonders’ – when did this happen and what form did it take? If symbolic, what does it symbolize?) Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. (‘darkness/blood’ – did this happen before or after Jesus stood on the mount of olives? Per Joel, it should have happened before – right? If symbolic, what does it symbolize or what form did it take? Is there anything in the historical or sacred writings the records it as the ‘terrible day of the LORD’? Is this symbolic and if so, what does it symbolize? What form did it take?) Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (‘whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD’ – does this mean ‘ALL’ or only those who call on the LORD? The most difficult one to reconcile is ‘mount Zion’ – the Temple Mount. The passage clearly says, “in mount Zion and in Jerusalem” so one may conclude that it’s on earth (right?) but isn’t entry currently prohibited to all non-Muslims? How then will Israel be delivered, since they don’t believe in Jesus, and their Holy, Sacred Temple isn’t accessible? Do we ascribe this passage as symbolism as well? If so, what does it symbolize? How would you reconcile this passage?

    The only way I would be able to explain what Peter quoted would be to conclude that the prophecy from Joel was only partially fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. If everything that was prophesied can be reconciled or confirmed as having been fulfilled where is the event recorded? Can the fulfillment of the prophecy be found in the bible? Pete – do you know when all Joel’s prophecy was fulfilled? I’d like to know the answer myself.

    Blessings

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    1. bmariez July 1, 2016 at 10:07 am

       Hi Becky, Not sure if you noticed, but Peter did not quote the last half of Joel 2:32. The same thing Jesus did in Luke 4:18,19. Peter said, “This is that” regarding Joel’s prophecy, Jesus said, “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”

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       1. doctrine Post authorJuly 1, 2016 at 10:25 am

          bmariez,
          Is your position that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came upon every human being and that the sun became dark and the moon looked like blood? It that what you think “this is that” means?

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          1. bmariez July 1, 2016 at 4:37 pm

             Don, What about this verse? Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Did all flesh see the salvation of God?

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             1. doctrine Post authorJuly 1, 2016 at 6:45 pm

                Bmariez,
                Not yet. The tense of the verb is future.

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                1. becky July 1, 2016 at 8:43 pm

                   Don, why was it quoted?

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                   1. doctrine Post authorJuly 2, 2016 at 11:28 am

                      bmariez,
                      It was quoted because the Jews’ hope lay in the coming of their earthly kingdom. Read the previous verses. They are quotes from Isaiah 40. Salvation for Israel was the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of the earthly kingdom. Read Luke 1 and 2. The statements of Zachariah, Mary, Simeon, Anna reveal the Jews’ hope and their concept of salvation. When Jesus arrived the kingdom of God was “near.” They thought it was about to be established. And it would have been had Israel repented.

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                      1. DJ March 30, 2024 at 5:16 pm

                         If Jesus came knowing he had to die, which meant Jews weren’t going to accept him, why did he even bother preaching and trying to convince them?

                         Reply ↓
                         1. doctrine Post authorApril 2, 2024 at 3:27 pm

                            DJ,
                            God always gives us choice. He knew many Jews would accept Him.

                            Reply ↓
16. Pete June 16, 2016 at 10:33 am

    Becky, these are all excellent questions and points. I will get back to you on them. I have replied in other threads to you but someone deleted the replies. The one thing I will say here that might help…is that I personally (along with many others) try to avoid changing plain ordinary text in order to accommodate my biased understanding of difficult text.

    Case in point: “wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”. Hard to understand. And we weren’t present when this happened. And it’s ancient Jewish text. We are 21st century Western influenced people reading from the King James. And we did not have the years of Hebrew education Peter and the other Jews had. That makes it tough for us to reconcile.

    But Peter said “this is that”. And then he proceeded to quote that portion in Joel. So we should just assume that PETER knew what he was talking about. Just because we don’t get it doesn’t give us the right to make the assumption that it did not happen.

    We should accept the simple plain text “this is that” and perhaps go and spend some serious time learning what the tough language means. Don’t just create entire new doctrines out of it.

    More later (assuming this doesn’t get deleted).

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17. Bobbi August 23, 2016 at 7:05 pm

    It would be good to see an article on interpretation, hermeneutics.
    This allegorical approach is dangerous. Why do you make an allegory out of something that can be understood literally? I realize that some things are hard to imagine, like Jesus reigning on earth on the throne of David but even as far back as 2Samuel 7:1-16 it is prophesied to be forever.
    I grew up in this allegory business and it is a robber and a thief. This is a sad thing. The Bible is inspired, 2Peter 1:21, so if ever at all possible to take a passage literally thus I will. Even as wondrous as some passages are they are possible. We just need to believe God.
    “Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.”
    I pray that all who have been blinded by allegories and such be freed to see the light. In Jesus name, Amen.

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    1. doctrine Post authorAugust 23, 2016 at 8:14 pm

       Bobbi,
       See my article, Hermeneutics.

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18. joe April 21, 2017 at 9:19 pm

    I’ve read some of the writings by some of those who believe all the prophecies concerning the end have already happened. Here’s a couple:

    1. coming in the clouds…..the dust clouds from the Roman wheels as they approach Jerusalem in the late 60’s a.d.

    2. Everyone will see: The Roman army was made up of people from all over the world.

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    1. doctrine Post authorApril 22, 2017 at 6:59 am

       Joe,
       Yes. These people are nuts.

       Reply ↓
19. joe April 21, 2017 at 9:34 pm

    Doctrine, since I’m here.

    There’s something in the bible about Jubilees. After 49 years the next year is a time where all debts are cleared up and settled and it all begins again until the next Jubilee. There is also the teaching of the Kinsman Redeemer….think the book or Ruth. Question: Is it possible that Revelation 5 occurs on the final Jubilee and the scroll that no one could open is the property deed of the earth and the only one who can perform the acts of the Kinsman Redeemer is Christ. 1. He’s related. 2. He is willing and 3. He has the ability. …..also, is it possible that on an upcoming Jubilee (Fall of the year) the Lord will undertake the functions of a Kinsman Redeemer by taking the earth back?

    I understand that 1917 was a Jubilee….Was that the year of the Balfore Declaration?
    In 1967 Israel recaptured part of Jerusalem
    You know where this is going.

    Any thoughts?

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    1. doctrine Post authorApril 22, 2017 at 9:14 am

       Joe,
       Christ is the only one qualified to open the scroll since He alone is the Redeemer.

       Reply ↓
20. Samual Yoder March 20, 2018 at 7:42 am

    Thanks, great exposition, that “his coming is near” was a head scratcher for me. You cleared up a lot that made me wonder, especially when I would get the scoffers as 2 Peter 3:3 declares.
    You show why we need to know Greek & Hebrew but unfornately some of us (like me) just can’t get our brain to learn a new language. That is why people like us who can’t get the language down rely on people like you to help us.

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    1. James breslin November 19, 2018 at 3:34 am

       Hello from Ireland …… Well said Samuel, I could not agree with you more… all parts of the body working in harmony each having its gift .This is a great place to learn, we sharpen each other. By any chance do you know any of the Yoders in Dunmore East in IRELAND.. ?

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21. Andy September 18, 2019 at 10:42 am

    Hi Don,
    I’m still having a hard time accepting that the Transfiguration was the fulfilment of the prophecy in the previous chapter. This is quite odd because,
    1.) Jesus spoke about coming in Judgement with his angels. “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.” This is within the same context and prophecy and that was definitely not fulfilled with the Transfiguration.
    2.) If the Transfiguration really was the fulfilment, then we have to assume that Jesus already knew about the Grace dispensation and the Body of Christ at that point and that Israel had failed already, which was clearly before anywhere near Acts.

    I think it’s more logical to say that Jesus literally meant the second coming and the Kingdom of God in Jerusalem when he said it to his disciples. It would have happened within their lifetime, but it didn’t, because change of programs. Jesus did not lie, he just said what was revealed to him by the father. He went full 100% messianic kingdom program till Israel failed to accept him. Does that make sense?

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    1. doctrine Post authorSeptember 18, 2019 at 4:44 pm

       Andy,
       Jesus was making the assumption the Jews would repent. Had they, this and everything He spoke about in Matthew 24 would have occurred. Since they refused to repent the Transfiguration was a kind of fulfillment. God accommodates human will. He know all choices real and potential. He has the ability to make everything turn our as He planned in the sphere of billions of wills each with trillions of choices. The number of permutations is beyond our comprehension but Jesus said nothing is impossible with God.

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22. TAfito April 19, 2020 at 5:22 am

    The Day of the Lord was happening at the day of the Pentecost in Act chapter 2. The Kingdom of God has been established on that day when the holy spirit came with power. The last verse of that chapter mentioned the church was established and it was about 3000 members added to the church, first the 12 apostles and then those who received the holy spirit on that day. That is how near the day of the lord was in the first century. AD33. That was day of the Lord when the spirit came down with power. It was something that Jesus taught his 12 disciples to expect. The day of the Pentecost happened on Sunday which is the first day of the week and that is why members of the Church of Christ worship God in the first day of the week. We already have the Kingodm of God with us which is the Church established in AD33 or TA33. After 7 Sabbaths then day next to those 49days is the first day of week (sunday) and that was happening in Act chapter 2 the begining of the Kingdom and that was the near that Jesus kept mentioning in the those verses in the article. Every individuals that were there witnessing this even the apostles. I am not a church minister but I am just a member of this spiritual Kingdom on earth. I am not perfect but I am trying my best to be faithful to my calling until the second coming of Jesus to take back his Kingdom from this earth. There are many versus in the article to prove that we have the kingdom of God with me but people don’t even know. That is the only reason why we go to church because it is a spiritual thing unlike the world kingdoms.

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    1. doctrine Post authorApril 19, 2020 at 8:14 am

       Tafito,
       The Day of the Lord is the Tribulation. It did not occur—the sun did not become dark or the moon turn to blood. Jesus did not return to earth. Peter and the rest of the apostles all thought they would see these things in their lifetime. They did not. The kingdom of God of which Peter spoke and which the prophets spoke is when Christ rules on the earth from Jerusalem. Jesus is not in Jerusalem ruling. His kingdom is not here. The Church began with Paul. See my article, Paul: Chief of Sinners? The Church is the body of Christ in which Jew and Gentile are equal in Christ, indweldt by the Holy Spirit. Peter addressed only Jews, no Gentiles at Pentecost (Read Acts 2 and 3). He knew nothing of the Church, the body of Christ.

       Reply ↓
23. Joe April 19, 2020 at 7:44 pm

    Don,

    Paul speaks of the Day of the Lord in Chapter 5 of I Thess.

    The Day of the Lord
    5
    Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

    Don, do you think Paul is saying the Thessalonians don’t need to know because he already taught them and they already know of the events of the Day of the Lord or because they simply don’t need to know because they won’t be around to witness it. ……..personally, I’ve always wondered why so much time is spent on learning about the DOTL because it does not apply to us. However, maybe we are to teach non-believers what to look for…..what do you think?

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    1. doctrine Post authorApril 19, 2020 at 8:11 pm

       Joe,
       Paul was always having to defend his doctrines. People in Paul’s day, just as they do today, teach that believers will go through the Tribulation, that there is no Rapture, etc. Paul had taught the Thessalonians these things but people came behind him and told them otherwise. This was why he wrote 2 Thessalonians.

       Reply ↓
24. Joe April 19, 2020 at 8:38 pm

    Of Course!!

    It’s as simple as that!. II Thess was written to correct those who didn’t believe the mystery of the rapture.

    It’s been right in front of me the whole time!……………….like your example of the short story, “The Purloined Letter”, in one of your books–

    btw–do you have a 3rd book ?

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorApril 19, 2020 at 8:53 pm

       Joe,
       My current project is translating the NT with explanatory notes, a kind of study Bible. Hope to have it finished in a few months.

       Reply ↓
       1. Craig April 20, 2020 at 7:40 am

          Looking forward to your study Bible. It will be a great help to many of us.

          Reply ↓
       2. Peter April 22, 2020 at 4:38 am

          Oh we need this kind of Study bible Don. Praying for safe soon delivery. How will you notify us? Really looking forward to getting it in our home.. Grace and His Peace to us all..

          Reply ↓
          1. doctrine Post authorApril 22, 2020 at 7:09 pm

             Peter,
             Thank you. When it is published, I’ll post it on the website.

             Reply ↓
             1. Matthew Hasbrouck April 22, 2020 at 7:49 pm

                Don,
                Can we pre- order the study bible? Can’t wait to get one!!😃

                Matt

                Reply ↓
                1. doctrine Post authorApril 23, 2020 at 9:21 am

                   Matt,
                   Thank you for your enthusiasm! There may be a way to set up pre-order but I think it’s rather involved and do not want to risk it. I hope to finish in a few more months. Patience!

                   Reply ↓
                   1. Matthew April 23, 2020 at 6:59 pm

                      Don,
                      I’m trying!! Lol I know that printing costs are expensive. I’m willing to go ahead and buy one ahead of print if it would help. I’m sure others on here would as well. Again, thanks for all you do!!

                      Matthew

                      Reply ↓
                      1. doctrine Post authorApril 24, 2020 at 8:37 pm

                         Matthew,
                         Thanks for the offer but it’s not necessary. Costs are deducted from sales by Amazon so I have no upfront expenses.

                         Reply ↓
25. Brian Kelley April 19, 2020 at 10:51 pm

    I’m looking forward to reading it, Don. I’ve learned much from your two books. I’m not trying to beat a dead horse, but I also hope that you include the true meaning of biblical Greek repentance as you’ve stated many times before on your website. But it’s still a point of contention for many lordship salvationists/calvinists I encounter. I’m bringing this up again because a very arrogant and self-righteous lordship salvationist lambasted me for a comment I made noting the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) on a recent Robert Breaker You Tube video. He gave this very ugly ‘turn from your sins’ diatribe. And he wouldn’t acknowledge the true ‘metanoia-metanoeo’ meaning. It was like a virulent virtual shouting match. A stridently religious facist type tone. Hyper legalistic and very sad. In their deceived zealotry they continue doing tremendous spiritual damage.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorApril 20, 2020 at 8:39 am

       Brian,
       Thanks. My goal is to provide notes for words and passages that will help readers have a clear understanding of the Scriptures. The “lordship salvation” movement started by MacArthur has damaged many believers and created great confusion in the Church. Paul had to contend against such enemies of grace during his entire apostleship.

       Reply ↓
26. Larry Sebring April 23, 2020 at 11:06 am

    We all so are looking forward to your Study Bible, loved your two books. God’ Program is still my favorite of all the books out there.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorApril 23, 2020 at 1:08 pm

       Larry,
       Thank you for your kind words.

       Reply ↓
27. Sue October 12, 2020 at 7:45 am

    Thank you for your wonderful articles.

    What is your understanding of the meaning of the Parable of the Ten Virgins Matthew 25:1-13

    Many thanks

    Sue

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 12, 2020 at 9:07 am

       Sue,
       Thank you. The parable teaches that every person must go to the Lord for salvation. The foolish virgins could not obtain oil (salvation) from the wise virgins. The wise virgins told them to go to those who sold oil, i.e., the Lord Himself. But they were too late. The Lord came and they lost the opportunity for salvation.

       Reply ↓
28. Joe B September 3, 2021 at 12:25 pm

    Don, do you believe this is literal and that few bibles will exist during the tribulation?

    Amos 8:11–12
    The New International Version
    11 “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign Lord,
    “when I will send a famine through the land—
    not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
    but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord.
    12 People will stagger from sea to sea
    and wander from north to east,
    searching for the word of the Lord,
    but they will not find it.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorSeptember 3, 2021 at 6:59 pm

       Joe,
       Yes. Look at the massive censorship going on now. It will be far worse in the Tribulation. Bibles could easily be declared illegal and persons in possession of one could be imprisoned or executed.

       Reply ↓
29. Joe October 27, 2021 at 11:47 am

    Don,

    H A Ironside says teaching that the Church is not in the first 3 chapters of Rev. is Satanic. What other Ironside’s teachings that i should be concerned with?

    “But so determined are these ultra-dispensationalists to take from the
    Church everything that is found in the book of Revelation, that they
    even insist that the letters addressed to the churches in chapters 2 and 3
    are all for Israel too. Ignoring the fact that the apostle John had labored
    for years in the Roman proconsular Province of Asia, that he was
    thoroughly familiar with all these seven churches, they nevertheless
    even go so far as to deny that some of these churches had any
    existence in the first century of the Christian era, when John wrote the
    Apocalypse, although Sir William Ramsay’s researches have proven
    the contrary. On the other hand they declare that all of these churches
    are to rise up in the future after the Body has been removed to Heaven,
    and that then the seven letters will have their application, but have no
    present bearing upon the consciences of the saints. I cannot conceive of
    anything more Satanic than this. Here are churches actually raised up
    of God through the preaching of the Gospel. “

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 27, 2021 at 1:00 pm

       Joe,
       See Stam’s work, The Controversy, https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/424b5e58/files/uploaded/StamI-CONTROVERSY.pdf. It reveals a lot.

       Reply ↓
30. Joe September 22, 2022 at 12:00 pm

    Ezekiel 38:11
    “And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,”

    Don, is it possible that the verse above is something that happens at the end of Kingdom (1000 yrs) and not the end of the 7 yrs tribulation? Are people in Israel living in peace and in unguarded walls (villages/cities) by the end of the Day of the Lord?

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorSeptember 23, 2022 at 7:22 pm

       Joe,
       Yes. Ezekiel 38-39 is difficult to set in a timeframe. John wrote about Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium. Is that what Ezekiel wrote about or is there another Gog and Magog event? I do not know. There are elements in the passage that do not seem to fit with any view—before the Tribulation, at the beginning of the Tribulation, at the end of the Tribulation, at the end of the Millennium.

       Reply ↓
31. Max November 17, 2022 at 1:32 am

    This post says: “it referred to the period of God’s wrath, the seven years Jesus called the Tribulation.” This is not scriptual. Jesus clearly says that the GREAT Tribulation commences from the abomination of desolation, so is only 3.5 years. At no time did He say there was a 7 year tribulation. Also, God’s wrath is only poured at some time during the last 3.5 years. God’s wrath, directly on those who rejected Him. As opposed to the destruction that Satan will be allowed to cause prior to this (e.g. Job).

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorNovember 17, 2022 at 8:00 am

       Max,
       The Tribulation period will last seven years according to Daniel 9. It begins with the treaty the Beast signs. The great tribulation will last three and a half years. Throughout Revelation we see two three and a half periods, expressed as 1260 day, forty-two months. The first of the six seals is at the beginning of the seven years and the sixth seal goes to its end.

       Reply ↓
32. Daniel J Stanton October 14, 2023 at 2:01 pm

    Daniel informed us God’s timeclock will begin, when many, including the Antichrist, sign a covenant. We know this clock only has space for seven years. Until the midst of said time period, peace will be in Israel. They will build the third temple, they will resume all their religious practices, including sacrifices. How can this be described as tribulation? Max was correct, tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation, not before. All references in Revelation to three and a half years, refer to the great tribulation period after the beast enters the temple.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 14, 2023 at 4:55 pm

       Daniel,
       Revelation indicates seven years, two segments of 42 months. In the first half, the two witnesses minister. They are killed at the midpoint but the text indicates that assassination attempts occur during that time. I do not find Scriptural support for the idea that the first 3 1/2 years is peaceful–there is tribulation, the first 3 1/2 years, and great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 years.

       Reply ↓
33. Daniel J Stanton October 14, 2023 at 9:14 pm

    The two witnesses minister while the events of the sixth trumpet are revealed, the second woe will be complete and the kingdoms of this world are about to become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. This, my friend is not the first three and a half years of the tribulation, it also belongs to the final portion, of these final seven years. Israel will enjoy peace while they erect the next temple, but this peace will end at the abomination, when the beast reveals himself.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 15, 2023 at 3:42 pm

       Daniel,
       The two witnesses minister 1260 days and are killed (Revelation 11.3). After this, Jerusalem is trampled 42 months (Revelation 11.2) This means they are killed in the middle of the Tribulation. See my article, The Two Witnesses.

       Reply ↓
34. Joe October 15, 2023 at 12:09 pm

    Don,

    Ezekeal 38 speaks of people living in unwalled cites. Who, where and when is this? Thank you for all you do.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 15, 2023 at 3:44 pm

       Joe,
       When Ezekiel 38 occurs is unclear. So, I do not know.

       Reply ↓
35. Daniel J Stanton October 16, 2023 at 6:23 am

    Rev. 11:11-15 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and a tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. When the two witnesses ascend to heaven, the second woe will be complete, and the third woe is coming quickly, which is the beginning of Christ’s kingdom on the earth. We see from these verses, the sixth trumpet is complete, the seventh angel sounds and the earth is His. This is the end of tribulation, not the beginning, it is important to be correct about this timing.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 16, 2023 at 8:54 am

       Daniel,
       If they minister for 1260 days and do not begin until the midpoint of the Tribulation, they are killed at the return of Christ. This makes no sense. The two timeframes,1260 days, 42 months designate the two parts of the 7 year tribulation.

       Reply ↓
36. Daniel J Stanton October 16, 2023 at 10:10 pm

    Why do these words not make sense, or hard to understand? “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. If these words immediately follow the two witnesses ascending to heaven, How can any of these words possibly apply to the first half of the final seven years? All Revelation references to a time, times, and half a time, refer to the same period of time, the latter period of the final seven years; all include great tribulation. They die after the sixth trumpet sounds, and before it is past. Except the simple truth of a subject first.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 17, 2023 at 10:08 am

       Daniel,
       The sound time markers in Revelation are the 1260 days and 42 months, except the mention in Revelation 12.14 of time, times, and half a time, which refers to the latter half of the seven years. If the two witnesses are killed in the latter 3 1/2 years, time, times, and half a time, their bodies lie in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days after Christ returns. The text states people party, celebrating their deaths. This would be after Armageddon, after Christ’s return. How does this make sense? The text states the Beast from the abyss kills them. That occurs at the midpoint of the seven years, described in Revelation 9 and 12. I think the problem is that you view the seal, trumpets, bowls, woes in terms of chronology. That is not how they work. They express seriality but not necessarily or strictly chronology. Revelation is theater. It is a show with repetitive scenes that give the same events in multiple views or scenes. For example, Revelation 9 and 12 occur at the same time. Several scenes of the same time and event are replayed to John showing the event in a different aspect.

       Reply ↓
37. Daniel J Stanton October 17, 2023 at 7:23 pm

    The text actually states “the second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded;” Why twist these words with the statement you made? “This would be after Armageddon, after Christ’s return.” Jesus begins His kingdom after the seventh angel sounds, therefore obviously the two witnesses ascend before Christ returns. You used a bunch of words to skirt right past my statement. All Biblical references of three and a half years apply to the same time period, not separate time periods.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 18, 2023 at 9:11 am

       Daniel,
       Time to end the discussion since you will not address the Scriptures I cite. It seems you are unwilling to entertain the idea that you may be wrong. The two witnesses are killed at the midpoint of the Tribulation by the the Beast indwelt by Satan, described in Revelation 9 and 12. The “obviously the two witnesses ascend before Christ returns” will not work timewise. They minister 1260 days, then their bodies lie in the street for 3 1/2 days after the 1260 days, i.e., 1263 1/2 days. If the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years, that puts Christ’s return beyond 3 1/2 years which violates your argument. How is it that the two witnesses are invulnerable for 1260 days and then can be killed? “My “bunch of words” explained the false assumption of using the seals, trumpets, bowls, woes to specify time. The Beast is manifest for 7 years. For 3 1/2 years he is purely human. The last 3 1/2 years he is superhuman, indwelt by Satan, who is thrown from heaven, descends to the abyss, ascends and indwells the Beast, reviving him from death. You stated the first 3 1/2 years, the world is at peace. How do you determine this?

       Reply ↓
38. Daniel J Stanton October 18, 2023 at 8:50 am

    Do any realize, that once one of the red heifers, that Israel now possesses become eligible for sacrifice, all the stipulations in Dan. 9:27 will have been met. I say this because seven years ago I authored a small book, in it I teach the covenant is the next prophetic event, not the Rapture. I appreciate the opportunity to double down on my understanding that the covenant is the next event on the prophetic calendar, before it actually manifests. Before great tribulation comes, we that believe in His blood redemption, will be Raptured, we will be taken out of great tribulation.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 19, 2023 at 9:14 am

       Daniel,
       God’s prophetic program is presently suspended. We are in God’s Church program. The Church must be removed before the Beast appears. This is clear from 2 Thessalonians 2:
       1 Now we ask you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and of our gathering to Him,
       2 that you might not be easily shaken in your mind or be troubled, by neither spirit, or by word, or by a letter as if through us, that the day of the Lord has arrived. (The Day of the Lord is the Tribulation)
       3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the departure must come first and then the man of the lawlessness should be revealed, the son of the destruction, (The departure is the Rapture)
       4 the one who opposes and exalts himself above every named god or object of worship, so that he will sit in the Temple of the God and display himself: that he is God.
       5 Do you not recall, when I was still with you, I kept telling you these things?
       6 And you know what now restrains him, so he might be revealed in his time. (The Church restrains the Beast)
       7 For the secret of the lawlessness is already at work, only the One who now restrains him will continue until it should be done out of the way. (God the Spirit restrains the Beast, and “it” is the Church)
       8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will slay by the breath of His mouth and abolish by the appearance of His coming,
       9 whose coming is after the working of Satan, by every power, and by signs, and false wonders,
       10 and by every deceit of the unrighteousness to those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so they might be saved.
       11 And because of this, the God will send them a supernatural work of deceit, so that they believe in the lie,
       12 so all these might be judged, who did not believe in the truth, but delighted in the unrighteousness.

       Reply ↓
39. Daniel J Stanton October 20, 2023 at 6:53 am

    This is what my 150 year old Bible records in 2 Thess. 2 1-2, Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him, That ye be not shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. The subject of this sentence is the Rapture. The day of Christ is the same as the day of the Son of man. The second sentence tells us two things that must first occur before we are Raptured, and the falling away that is first mentioned, is exactly what we have witnessed during this last generation, people falling away from faith, it is an injustice to insert departure, for falling away. Now for sure the second stipulation is the abomination of desolation. The falling away part is nearing its completion, and we need only wait and watch for the day that wretched beast steps into Israel’s third temple. Regardless of what the day of Christ means, the subject of the sentence remains the same, our gathering together unto Him, the Rapture. We will not be gathered to Him until both stipulations are satisfied.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 20, 2023 at 9:44 am

       Daniel,
       My concern is the Greek text. The text does not read “day of Christ” but “day of the Lord.” The manuscript evidence for the former is extremely weak. The problem of the Thessalonians was that some were telling them they were in the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation. Paul’s purpose was to relieve their concerns. To do this, he gave them a solid sign—the Rapture. The articular “the departure,” ἡ ἀποστασία, denotes a specific event. Apostasy or “falling away” cannot be such a sign for it has existed from the earliest of times in church history. The noun ἀποστασία was translated “departure” by all the translations before the KJV. Paul used different language for the many passages in which he taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The “departure” is another rendering for it. The Church, the body of Christ, is a new creation, separate from God’s prophetic plan for Israel and the nations. The Church cannot be present in God’s prophetic plan. The Church has no prophecy. Mixing God’s prophetic program with His secret Church program is Christendom’s great theological error. It is apostasy. Paul wrote about it in 2 Timothy 1.15 and it is evident throughout the writings of the church fathers.

       Reply ↓
40. Daniel J Stanton October 20, 2023 at 10:38 pm

    Regardless of the meaning, “day of Christ”, or “day of the Lord”, the subject matter remains, “our gathering together unto him”. And both stipulations must be fulfilled, before we are gathered. This is the simple meaning in these two sentences. If falling away means depart from the earth, then the subject matter of the first sentence, is not “our gathering together unto him”, and clearly it is.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 21, 2023 at 9:27 am

       Daniel,
       One cannot mix God’s prophetic program with God’s program of the Church with creating confusion and contradiction. Such mixing is the great error of Christendom and the reason we have thousands of denominations. God is not the author of confusion and what we see in Christendom is massive confusion. In the Thessalonian passage, Paul wrote the Rapture must come before the Beast appears to sign the covenant Daniel described, which starts the 7 year Tribulation period. The prophetic program cannot begin until Christ removes His Church. Paul’s apostleship was unique. He was not an appendage to the Twelve but God’s handpicked apostle to begin the Church and write all Church doctrine. This is why Paul called his doctrine revelations and secrets. How often have you heard sermons on Paul’s secrets, that his teaching were new? This is Christendom’s great failure, which Paul described in 2 Timothy 1.15. Without understanding this, one cannot understand Church theology.

       Reply ↓
41. Daniel J Stanton October 21, 2023 at 5:48 pm

    When the covenant is signed, and Israel begins to build the third temple, and the Rapture has not occurred, I would like to continue this conversation. I will not bother you further, seeing as I just do not understand Church theology.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 22, 2023 at 10:23 am

       Daniel,
       If you were willing to answer my question about Paul’s revelations and secrets the conversation could continue. I will close by saying that until one understands Paul’s unique apostleship, his revelations and secrets, that all Church doctrine comes from him, and that a vast difference exists between God’s prophetic program and Church program, one cannot understand Church theology. This statement is proven by the thousands of denominations in Christendom. The Church should be united in its theology. The reason it is not, is its failure to understand Paul’s apostleship.

       Reply ↓
42. Joe October 22, 2023 at 1:58 pm

    Don and Daniel

    I have learned much from this recent back and forth. I’m certain this has served a purpose. It’s a good question, why so many denominations? I too believe it’s too much time spent in half of the NT not written by Paul. Today is Sunday. I wager the vast majority of sermons today are from the 4 gospels.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 22, 2023 at 3:24 pm

       Joe,
       Probably 95% of sermons are from the Gospels. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable, but only Paul’s letters contain Church doctrine. Almost all of the confusion and disagreement in Christendom is the result of failing to recognize this fact. For the many years I spent in churches, I cannot recall one sermon on Paul’s secrets or revelations or even recognizing that Paul received unique revelations from the ascended Christ. Almost all churches regard Paul as an extension of the Twelve and that they proclaimed the same message. The ignorance is overwhelming and penetrates into the finest seminaries. Most professors of theology and pastors understand almost nothing of Church theology. As I have demonstrated in my books, this failure began early in church history.

       Reply ↓
       1. Brian Kelley October 23, 2023 at 10:53 am

          Don, my experience with Liberty University and elsewhere has shown me that a growing percentage of ‘experts’ /’scholars’/’professors’ are becoming more secularized or even universalististic.. The classic academic conservative vs. liberal divide is widening at an alarming rate. Provocateurs such as the flippant agnostic, Bart Ehrman, have become more aggressive, or even vicious, in their attacks on Christianity. All one has to do is go see the pseudo scholarly books in the Christianity/religion section in a Barnes & Noble store to know this satanic apostasy or deception is true. As C.S. Lewis stated, these ‘experts’ attack Paul’s legitimacy first and then proceed to try to attack Christ’s legitimacy. And eventually, more fools become atheist or universalist due to this satanic propoganda.

          Reply ↓
          1. doctrine Post authorOctober 23, 2023 at 11:36 am

             Brian,
             The battle lines are being drawn more clearly. What was hidden, done in the darkness, is now in the light. Political and theological realms are closely aligned. Government officials and media are boldly treasonous. God’s highest creation, mankind, created in His image is openly attacked by pedophilia, transgenderism, and sexual perversion. Antisemitism is rising. Ultimately, the Jews are the final target. The true nature of evil is to normalize it (Isaiah 5.20). We are witnessing mankind’s true nature without Christ, in rebellion to God. Pray for our nation, for people to awaken, to come to know the Lord. Despite all this, God is in control.

             Reply ↓
43. Daniel J Stanton October 23, 2023 at 5:45 am

    I know that Paul was the first Christian, I also know Jesus revealed all the doctrine a Christian requires, to Paul. I simply show that the two sentences Paul recorded in 2 Thess. 2:1-4, shows us, our gathering unto Him will not occur until both stipulations listed are fulfilled. And again, regardless of what the “day of Christ” means, the subject matter of the first sentence never changes, and that subject matter is our gathering unto Him. So, the part about falling away does not indicate our departure from the earth, but it does indicate our departure from the faith. And with what we have witnessed in our lifetime, the falling away part, is closing in on completion. And we know the second stipulation will not be fulfilled until after the covenant is ratified.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 23, 2023 at 9:28 am

       Daniel,
       No, departure from the faith is always present. As I pointed out, the text reads “the departure,” ἡ ἀποστασία. The articular noun denotes a specific event. It is not falling away from the faith. Christendom has been doing that for nearly two millennia. It is not a recent occurrence. Paul wrote it began in his day. The Thessalonians were experiencing persecution. Some were telling them this was the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord. Paul’s purpose was to relieve them of this fear. To do this required giving them a specific sign. That sign was the Rapture, “the departure.” Thus, he wrote that before the man of the sin can appear, the Rapture must occur. Paul had taught them this earlier but deceivers were telling them the Tribulation had begun. There are no “two stipulations.” The Beast appears at the beginning of the seven years. Daniel wrote that the Beast stops the sacrifice in the middle of the week. This shows he has appeared at the beginning of the week. The week is 7 years, not 3 1/2 years, the 70th week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy. Daniel’s prophecy concerns Israel, not the Church. The Church cannot be present in the 70th week. Nowhere in prophecy is the Church mentioned. We are outside prophecy. We are in an entirely new and different program.

       Reply ↓
44. Daniel J Stanton October 23, 2023 at 6:50 am

    Some food for thought, if the covenant in Dan. 9:27 were confirmed today, only a select few would know who the antichrist is. The antichrist’s revelation occurs in the midst of the final seven years. The select few I spoke about, will understand who the beast is through Scripture.

    Reply ↓
    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 23, 2023 at 9:41 am

       Daniel,
       The Beast appears at the beginning of the 70th week. He is given power by Satan for 3 1/2 years and then is killed. Satan, thrown from heaven, comes out of the Abyss and then revives him and indwells him for the next 3 1/2 years. The Beast can now kill the two witnesses for he is indwelt by Satan. The Jews will think he is the Messiah for the first 3 1/2 years, what Jesus told them in John 5.43. When he stops the daily sacrifice, the abomination of desolation, doubts will begin. Jesus told the Jews when they see this to flee to the mountains. But most of them will remain in unbelief until they actually see Jesus of Nazareth return. Then every single Jew on earth will believe (Romans 11.26).

       Reply ↓
45. Daniel J Stanton October 23, 2023 at 6:21 pm

    So, the many people that chose the Bible to be translated as we read today, produced a fallible book, and you get to judge what is correct. Awesome gig you got going here.

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    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 24, 2023 at 8:47 am

       Daniel,
       If you examine translations, you will find various readings based on the word choices translators have made and whether they choose the text from Majority Text or the Critical Text. The KJV is based mostly on the Majority Text while NIV, NET, NASB, use the Critical Text. Most of my translation is based on the Majority Text but I look at the variant readings to determine the best text. One of the best tools is https://bterry.com/tc2/index.htm. In the case of 2 Thessalonians 2.2, the choice is easy. The manuscript reading for “day of the Lord” is much stronger than “the day of Christ.” As for “the departure,” ἡ ἀποστασία, the noun is only used twice but when it is used for a “falling away from the faith” it has no definite article and a qualifying prepositional phrase (Acts 21.21). The primary meaning of the preposition in the word, ἀπό, denotes separation. Paul’s language denoted an event, the Rapture. Both grammar and logic support this reading. I work as unto the Lord.

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46. Joe October 23, 2023 at 7:10 pm

    The two people (Angels?) at Christ’s ascension told the disciples Christ would return much like he had left. I think it’s in Zechariah we’re told where the Mesiah’s feet will touch down. It appears this descent of our Lord is not a secrete/mystery. We were told about this return before Paul even came on the scene. Paul, however, says to this collection of people in his letter to the Thessalonians, as restated in 1 Corinthians, that Christ’s appearance is a mystery. How can Christ’s/Mesiah’s appearance be universally taught but yet be a mystery?

    From the internet:

    1 Corinthians 15:51
    “I show you a mystery” is a phrase from the King James Version of the Bible, specifically 1 Corinthians 15:51123. The verse refers to a thing which the reader has never known before4. The mystery is that “we shall not all sleep; we shall not all die; but we shall all be changed”4. The verse goes on to describe how this change will happen “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump”1.

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    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 24, 2023 at 8:55 am

       Joe,
       Translations that render μυστήριον as “mystery” do a disservice to readers. The word means “secret.” “Mystery” and “secret” connote different senses. The former has the sense of strange, weird while the latter is something unknown, hidden. Paul revealed things previously hidden, unknown. Translating it “secret” is much more revealing to readers. Poor translation has led to confusion.

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47. Daniel J Stanton October 24, 2023 at 8:27 pm

    First, I must point out that the KJV was the only version for centuries, for English readers. The others you mention are later translations, and some even take out the mention of His blood. The King’s English is a dead language and can not be changed. Do you believe God allowed His Word to be recorded incorrectly in many separate instances?

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    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 25, 2023 at 8:12 am

       Daniel,
       Many Bibles preceded the KJV: Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthew, Great, Geneva, Jerome’s Vulgate. Do you maintain men cannot make translation errors?

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48. Daniel J Stanton October 25, 2023 at 6:46 am

    The Biblical meaning of mystery according to Google; A hidden reality or secret. You should jump out of the definition game, because your definitions mostly cause confusion. Les Feldick himself taught many times the terms secret and mystery are the same. Paul also equates the two words as equal in one verse, Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.

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    1. doctrine Post authorOctober 25, 2023 at 8:23 am

       Daniel,
       “Mystery” and “secret” have distinct connotations. You do not tell someone a mystery when you mean a secret. For example, the KJV renders 1 Corinthians 15.51 as “Behold, I show you a mystery.” But the Greek text reads, “Behold, I tell you a secret.” Paul is conveying new information, information God kept hidden. Romans 16.25 uses an entirely different word. The text reads: Now to Him who can establish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ according to secret revelation (ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου), which has been kept silent (σεσιγημένου) in the times of the ages. The latter verb σιγάω means to keep silent.

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