Introduction
Revelation is a confusing book to most people despite the many commentaries written. The reason most commentaries fail to enlighten the book’s contents is because they violate one or more of the three basic principles of sound biblical interpretation. These are the following: 1) acceptance of the Scriptures as God-breathed (θεόπνευστος), 2) correct placement of the text within the framework of God’s progressive revelation, and 3) sound and consistent hermeneutic or interpretative method.
The first word of the book is “revelation” (ἀποκάλυψις)–hence its title. The word means to “unveil,” or “reveal.” The first phrase of the book is (Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) “Revelation of Jesus Christ.” The “revelation of Jesus Christ” should be interpreted as both a subjective and an objective genitive. The book reveals Jesus Christ, the God of the Bible, in His role during the Tribulation and as King of Kings (subjective genitive) and is the revelation from Jesus about the events that will transpire during the Tribulation and afterwards (objective genitive).
God wishes us to understand His Word (cf. Revelation 1.3). The goal of this study is to reveal to whom the book was written and the purpose of the book.
Summary
| Title | The Revelation of Jesus Christ (Revelation 1.1). | |
| Meaning | “Revelation” (ἀποκάλυψις) means “disclose,” “unveil,” “reveal.” Subjective and objective genitive: Christ is revealed and He reveals things to come. | |
| Message | Overcoming (νικάω) in the Day of the Lord (Revelation 2.7, 11, 17, 26, 3.5, 12, 21, 21.7) | |
| Author | The Apostle John (Revelation 1.1, 4, 9) | |
| Location | Written from the isle of Patmos (Revelation 1.9) | |
| Occasion | The Day of the Lord: ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ (Revelation 1.10) | |
| Audience | Seven Jewish assemblies in Asia Minor (Turkey) (Revelation 1.4, 6, 22.16) | |
| Literature | Prophetic with many symbolic expressions, i.e., Lamb, Beast, etc. | |
| Hermeneutic | Normal reading and literal interpretation. Symbols have literal antecedents, many of which are found in writings of the prophets. | |
| Date | About 50-55 A.D.1 |
Interpretative Schools
| Four Major Interpretative Schools | |
| Preterist | Events were fulfilled by 70 A.D. |
| Historical | Events were fulfilled throughout history |
| Idealist | Events symbolize the battle of good vs. evil |
| Futurist | Events remain future |
Preterist and Historical schools of interpretation face insurmountable obstacles in identifying events described in Revelation with events in history. To overcome these obstacles they imagineer passages and interpret them in a figurative manner. Under such a system the text can mean almost anything the interpreter wishes. This weakness was summarized by E. W. Bullinger:
“The historical interpreters differ so much among themselves that we may well ask, ‘Which one of them are we to believe?’ It is this very diversity which has caused so many earnest students to put the Apocalypse aside in despair.”2
An example of such confusion is the teaching that the seven “churches” represent successive stages of Church history. This is represented by charts similar to the one below:
While this interpretation is widespread in Christendom, it has no Scriptural basis. It is fantasy. The seven “churches” in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation are Jewish assemblies, not Christian churches. The language associated with them is wholly Jewish; no Pauline or Church language is present. Everything the Lord said was associated with Israel and concerned God’s judgment and how to obtain salvation during those seven years.
The Idealist school suffers from similar inadequacies. It is so broad and general in approach that it cannot provide helpful insight into the meaning of the events in the book other than to say that forces of good are at war with the forces of evil and that good will conquer evil.
For serious students of the Scriptures, only one interpretive school has hermeneutical rigor and merit: the Futurist. This method alone can integrate and interpret consistently the hundreds of Old Testament prophesies and the words of our Lord concerning end-time events (cf. Matthew 24).
Interpretive Methods
Another essential factor in understanding Revelation is its method of interpretation. Those who engage in a figurative hermeneutic wrestle the text into almost any shape they wish. For example, most who take a figurative approach of interpretation declare the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Church. This is pure imagination. Nothing in the context of the passage would lead to this conclusion. A normal reading of the text is that the two witnesses are just that, two witnesses, i.e., two men whom God will use during those days.
Much of the language in Revelation is figurative or symbolic. So are passages in Isaiah. Isaiah wrote, “all flesh is grass.” Did he mean skin is bermuda, zoysia, or fescue? Everyone recognizes Isaiah was using a figure of speech to communicate our bodies are mortal. The literal point remains: life ends, we die. The text will usually indicate when a passage is a figure of speech by its context or the use of “like” or “as.” In other cases, when symbolic language is used, one can understand the literal sense behind the symbol. In Revelation, we know the Lamb is Christ. We know the Beast is the Antichrist, the one who comes in the place of Christ and opposes Him. This is straightforward. In the same way, who are the two witnesses? The most natural interpretation is the two witnesses are two men God has commissioned as servants to reveal Him and oppose the Antichrist. In other words, the two witnesses are two witnesses. Lastly, since Revelation is a Jewish book, many of the symbols in the text allude to events and language of the Old Testament. The meaning of such passages can be found by comparing Scripture with Scripture.
If one is open to a normal reading of the text and will allow the Scriptures to speak plainly, Revelation is quite forthright. Only when one applies a non-literal interpretive method and tries to identify events to past history or impose ideological constructs or theological presuppositions does it become complex, difficult, and unverifiable.
Structure of the Book (Governed by Groups of 7)
| Introduction and the Seven Assemblies | Revelation 1-3 |
| Praise of God | Revelation 4 |
| The Seven Seal Judgments | Revelation 5-6 |
| Sealing 144,000 Jews of 12 Tribes of Israel | Revelation 7 |
| The Seven Trumpet Judgments | Revelation 8-9 |
| The Seven Thunders | Revelation 10 |
| The Two Witnesses | Revelation 11 |
| War in Heaven and Earth | Revelation 12 |
| The Beast and the False Prophet | Revelation 13 |
| The Six Angels and the Son of Man | Revelation 14 |
| The Seven Bowl Judgments | Revelation 15-16 |
| Babylon: World System of Satan | Revelation 17-18 |
| The Return of the King | Revelation 19 |
| The Judgment of Unbelievers | Revelation 20 |
| The New Heavens and New Earth | Revelation 21 |
| Concluding Words and Warnings | Revelation 22 |
Audience
Everything in Revelation concerns Israel and the nations. The Tribulation is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30.7) and God’s judgment of the nations. Paul wrote the Church, the body is Christ, would not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2.1-15; Romans 5.9; Ephesians 5.6; Colossians 3.6). Therefore, no Church language of evidence of the Church is present in Revelation. Paul warned that those who teach the Church will go through the Tribulation were false teachers (2 Thessalonians 2.1-2).
The primary audiences of Revelation are Jews who belong to the seven ἐκκλησίαι, “churches,” “assemblies,” “congregations,” etc., identified in the second and third chapters of Revelation (cf. Revelation 1.4-5). Notice each assembly did not just receive the message written to it but received the letters of all the assemblies (Revelation 1.4, 2.7, etc.). Each received all the messages. Why these seven? Why are they only in Turkey? Why are none in Israel? No one knows. The best answer may be that these believers were the same Jews to whom James and Peter wrote (James 1.1; 1 Peter 1.1). Only three of the seven cities of the assemblies are mentioned outside of Revelation: Ephesus (Acts 18.19, 21, 24, 19.1, 17, 26, 35, 20.16, 17; 1 Corinthians 15.32, 16.8; Ephesians 1.1; 1 Timothy 1.3; 2 Timothy 1.18, 4.12), Thyatira (Acts 16.14), and Laodicea (Colossians 2.1, 4.13, 15, 16). The other four are not mentioned.
The three assemblies mentioned are clearly different from the churches associated with Paul’s ministry. The language surrounding them is wholly Jewish and vastly different from the language Paul used in writing to members of the body of Christ. Paul’s language of grace, peace, the cross, resurrection, the body of Christ, etc. does not exist in these passages. Rather, the messages are of judgment, works, repentance, overcoming, etc. Each message contains the Lord’s familiar refrain “he that has an ear” from the gospels (Matthew 11.15, 13.9; Mark 4.9; Luke 8.8). Members of these assemblies were not saved by believing Paul’s gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20.24; Romans 16.25; 1 Corinthians 15.1-4). Those composing the ἐκκλησία of Revelation were Jews who believed the gospel of the kingdom. They had believed who Christ was (Matthew 16.15-16; John 11.25-27)–in His identity.
The Lord Himself communicated to these assemblies. The allusions and symbols are Jewish and the passages read like texts from the prophets. Revelation could snap into the Biblical canon right after Zechariah or Malachi and we would think nothing of it. John wrote to those who were “kings and priests” (Revelation 1.6). Members of the Church, the body of Christ, are never described as “kings and priests.” “Kings” and “priests” are designations of Jews (cf. Exodus 19.6; Matthew 19.28; 1 Peter 2.5, 9; Revelation 5.10).
The occasion or timeframe of the book is the Day of the Lord. John wrote he was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day or the Day of the Lord: ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ (Revelation 1.10). Clearly, he did not mean Sunday. What John recorded were events that would fulfill the prophecies of the prophets concerning this day (Isaiah 2.12; 13.6, 9; Ezekiel 13.5, 30.3; Joel 1.15, 2.1, 11, 31; 3.14; Amos 5.18, 20; Obadiah 1.15; Zephaniah 1.7, 14; Zechariah 14.1; Malachi. 4.5 cf. Revelation 6.17; 16.14)3
The Lord communicated directly to John to them (Revelation 1.4, 11) and warned about events that would soon (τάχος) occur (Revelation 1.1, 22.6) and were “at hand” ἐγγύς (Revelation 1.3, 22.10). The word τάχος (from which we get tachometer) means either (or both) something that will happen soon or something that will happen speedily. The word ἐγγύς means to be near either (or both) in time or place.
To make their case, Preterists place enormous weight upon the terms τάχος and ἐγγύς. They argue the events recorded in Revelation occurred by 70 A.D. While difficulties exist in explaining the terms outside of the 70 A.D. framework, they are trivial compared to explaining the events within a 70 A.D. framework. Consider the following: Zephaniah wrote the Day of the LORD (the Tribulation) was near (קָרוֹב) in Zephaniah 1.14. The Hebrew word קָרוֹב corresponds to the Greek word ἐγγύς and means near in time or place. How near was the Day of the LORD to the prophets? Zephaniah wrote in the 6th century B.C. Joel wrote that the Day of the LORD was near קָרוֹב (Joel 2.1) in the 9th century B.C. So what is “near?” Near for whom? How is the problem of “near” solved? That is another story and the subject of a future article.4
Date
Most commentators maintain Revelation was written about 95-96. Evidence for such dating is highly problematic. The primary evidence for dating Revelation during Domitian’s reign (95-96) comes from Irenaeus. But what Irenaeus meant by what he wrote is unclear. Furthermore, Irenaeus’ reliability is questionable. For example, he stated Jesus was over fifty when he died (Adversus haereses, 2:22). Irenaeus specific quote for a late date is the following:
“We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign” (Adversus haereses, 5:30:3).
More likely, John wrote between 50-55 A.D., during the reign of Nero. Preterists maintain the events of Revelation were fulfilled by 70 A.D. So their theological position requires on early dating. Some have argued against Preterism on the basis of a later dating of the text (95-96 A.D.) but this approach is unnecessary. Prophecy is future. Revelation could easily have been written prior to 70 A.D. and have its fulfillment far in the future.
The great hurdle that exists for those who maintain the book was written late (95-96 A.D.) is no mention is made of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. To the Jew, Jerusalem and the Temple were everything. Not to mention their destruction in a book like Revelation would be like an American history text failing to mention the Civil War or WW2. J. A. T. Robinson commented on this matter in his book Redating the New Testament:
One of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period–the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and with it the collapse of institutional Judaism based on the temple–is never once mentioned as a past fact. It is, of course, predicted; and these predictions are, in some cases at least, assumed to be written (or written up) after the event. But the silence is nevertheless as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark. S.G.F. Brandon made this oddness the key to his entire interpretation of the New Testament: everything from the gospel of Mark onwards was a studied rewriting of history to suppress the truth that Jesus and the earliest Christians were identified with the revolt that failed. But the sympathies of Jesus and the Palestinian church with the Zealot cause are entirely unproven and Brandon’s views have won scant scholarly credence. Yet if the silence is not studied it is very remarkable.
James Moffatt wrote:
We should expect . . . that an event like the fall of Jerusalem would have dinted some of the literature of the primitive church, almost as the victory at Salamis has marked the Perae. It might be supposed that such an epochal-making crisis would even furnish criteria for determining the dates of some of the NT writings. As a matter of fact, the catastrophe is practically ignored in the extant Christian literature of the first century.
Similarly, C.F.D. Moule wrote:
It is hard to believe that a Judaistic type of Christianity which had itself been closely involved in the cataclysm of the years leading up to A.D. 70 would not have shown the scars–or, alternatively, would not have made capital out of this signal evidence that they, and not non-Christian Judaism, were the true Israel. But in fact our traditions are silent.
The book of Revelation is the last book of the Bible in our canon for good reason. It is the final expression of and complement to the prophecies of the Jewish prophets. Revelation reveals the events of the Day of the LORD (Revelation 1.10; Zephaniah 1.14-18; Joel 2.1-11; Acts 2.14-21), what Jesus called the “Tribulation” (Matthew 24.21, 29) and the establishment of the kingdom of God upon the earth.
Theme and Purpose
Survival in the Tribulation will be almost impossible.
Jesus provided His disciples with details about the end-time and His return (Matthew 24). His chief warning to them in His Olivet discourse was that they should not be deceived (πλανάω) (Matthew 24.4, 5, 11, 24). The reason Jesus gave this warning was that deception will characterize the Day of the LORD (the Tribulation). The book of Revelation is the record of Satan’s great attempt as the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4.4) to rule overtly the world he now controls behind the scenes (Matthew 4.8-9; Luke 4.5-6). Satan has manipulated the world’s governments for thousands of years as a great puppet master and will finally step from behind the curtain onto the world stage in the person of the Antichrist a.k.a. “the Beast” to rule (1 John 2.18; Revelation 13.1-4). Jesus prophesied about him in John 5 and issued a chilling warning about how the Jewish people (and the world) will respond to this deceiver.
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him (John 5.39-43).
Jesus declared to the Jews who opposed Him that He came in His Father’s name. He told them that while they refused to receive Him, they would receive “another” who would come in his own name. This will be Satan’s man, the Antichrist, the Beast (cf. John 5.43).
A Guide For Survival
Revelation is a survival manual. Beyond revealing the King, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the events that will transpire until His return, its primary purpose is a survival guide. In His Olivet message, Jesus declared the Tribulation period would be a time of extraordinary deceit. This deception will be to such a degree that even believers may be deceived:
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance (Matthew 24.24-25).
Jesus made it clear that this period of time will also be a time of unprecedented distress:
9 Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come (Matthew 24.9-14).
The Lord warned His disciples of coming tribulation with death and hatred because of Him. People (believers included?) will abandon the faith and betray and hate one another. False prophets will be everywhere and crime rampant. Jesus warned, “the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” This is a key phrase and has reference to what the Lord told John to write to the Jewish assemblies about “overcoming.” The gospel of the kingdom will reach the entire world and then the end (the return of the King) will come. Finally, each address to these assemblies includes the words, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches” (Revelation 2.7, 11, 17, 29, 3.6, 13, 22). This mirrors the seven times Jesus spoke these words in the Gospels (Luke 8.8; Matthew 11.15, 13.9, 43; Mark 4.23, 7.16; Luke 14.35). The eighth usage of this adage occurs in Revelation 13.9. The significance of this occurrence is that it sums up the earlier seven warnings and explains these warnings concern the worship of the Beast and the Dragon (Satan) who empowers him.
The words Jesus gave His disciples about enduring to end is the central message to the seven Jewish assemblies in Revelation.
| Assembly | Message: Overcome (νικάω) |
| Ephesus | To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God (Revelation 2.7). |
| Smyrna | He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2.11). |
| Pergamum | To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it (Revelation 2.17). |
| Thyatira | 26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star (Revelation 2.26-28). |
| Sardis | He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels (Revelation 3.5). |
| Philadelphia | He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name (Revelation 3.12). |
| Laodicea | He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne (Revelation 3.21). |
The message Jesus gave to the members of each assembly was a message of salvation, i.e., “eat of the tree of life,” “not hurt by the second death,” etc. Nothing in Jesus’ words indicate that the members of these assemblies had salvation as a present possession. He said, “I will grant/give” (δώσω–future active indicative) salvation to those who “overcome.” Such language is entirely different from Paul’s teaching that believers “have” salvation as a present possession on the basis of believing his gospel (cf. 1 Corinthians 15.1-4; Ephesians 1.7; Colossians 1.13-14). For those whom Jesus addressed in Revelation 2-3, salvation is based upon “overcoming.” If they “overcome” they will (future tense) be saved.
La Bête de la Mer (from the Tapisserie de l’Apocalypse in Angers, France). This detail shows the False Prophet, the Dragon, and the Beast of the Sea.
What constitutes “overcoming” (νικάω) to obtain salvation? The challenge for the generation in which these events will occur will be a choice: to trust the true Christ or embrace the false Christ. Jesus warned of the tremendous pressure that will be exerted to earth’s inhabitants to worship and identify with the false Christ. John witnessed that “all who dwell upon the earth will worship him” (Revelation 13.8) and that none can buy or sell without accepting his identifying mark (Revelation 13.16-17). Worship of and accepting the Antichrist’s mark will constitute a rejection of Christ and seal one’s eternal doom (Revelation 14.9-11). Such language presents an impossible hurdle for preterists and historicists since this has never happened. It remains future.
The “enduring until the end” of which Jesus spoke referred to one of two outcomes: the end of a person’s life–being executed for not worshiping the Antichrist and accepting his mark–or Christ’s return at the end of the Tribulation. The one who endures to the end is the one who overcomes. By “saved” Jesus meant both eternal salvation and physical salvation.
Another thing to note from the Matthew 24 passage is that the “gospel of the kingdom” will be preached during the end time. This gospel was the good news John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Twelve proclaimed: that Christ was the Messiah-King. It declared the King and His kingdom were near (Matthew 3.3, 4.17, 23, 9.35). Under the kingdom gospel one was saved by believing Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 16.15-16; John 11.26-27). This gospel will be revived and preached again during the Tribulation period. Believing Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, means one will reject the Beast, the Antichrist as God–worshiping and taking his mark.
Conclusion
The book of Revelation serves strategic and tactical purposes. The strategic purpose is to reveal Christ, His return, the setting up of His kingdom, the defeat of Satan, and the establishment of the eternal state (new heavens and new earth). The tactical purpose, which is most of the book, is to reveal the horrors of the Tribulation and how one can be saved in the midst of tremendous deception and pressure.
1 Dating is based on several factors. The most explicit statement for the dating of the book is Colossians 1.25. Paul wrote that God gave him the job of completing the Scriptures. Since Paul died around 67-68 A.D., it means 2 Timothy was the last book written. This eliminates the prevalent idea that Revelation was written in the 90s. John thought the coming of Christ was near (Revelation 1.1) as did Peter (Acts 2.16-21), as did Paul. Paul thought the Rapture would occur in his lifetime and the Day of the Lord would follow shortly. While the stoning of Stephen was the crisis point for national Israel, God let Israel’s rejection run its course for 40 years (the biblical time of testing) until Titus destroyed Jerusalem (70 A.D.). Had Israel repented, the Tribulation would have occurred during the reign of Nero, who would have fulfilled the requirements of the Antichrist. One of the cities John addressed was Laodicea, which was destroyed (along with Colossae and Heiropolis) in the mid-60s A.D. This would seem to indicate he wrote before then. Paul mentioned believers in both of these cities in his letter to the Colossians, but neither Colossae or Heirapolis is mentioned in Revelation. About 60 A.D., Paul made his last appeal to Israel (Acts 28). In 51 A.D., the Jerusalem Council agreed Paul’s gospel was the only valid gospel from then onward. Thus, this meeting marked the end of the gospel of the kingdom proclaimed by the Twelve (Acts 15.11, cf. Galatians 1.6-9). John wrote of future events, which would indicate before Nero, who reigned from 54-68 A.D. What he wrote would have had to be before or within his reign, i.e., probably before 54 and before Laodicea was destroyed. John gave no indication of the decision of the Jerusalem Council. He recorded the words of Jesus that salvation was based upon “overcoming” (νικάω, cf. Matthew 24.13-14), through the gospel of the kingdom, not Paul’s gospel of grace. No Church, body of Christ, doctrine exists in Revelation or doctrines proclaimed by Paul. This seems to indicate John wrote Revelation before Pauline doctrine was assimilated (cf. 2 Peter 3.14-16). Lastly, is the matter of the Temple, destroyed in 70 A.D., discussed above.
2 E.W. Bullinger, Commentary on Revelation, p. 154.
3 The predominant view is the that “Lord’s day” referred to Sunday. However, a strong minority view has favored that the phrase meant the “day of the Lord” or the “day of Yahwe,” cf. Revelation 6.17, 16.14 (Encyclopedia Biblica, s.v. “Lord’s Day”). J. A. Seiss wrote: He says he “was in Spirit in the Lord’s day,” in which he beheld what he afterward wrote. What is meant by this Lord’s day? Some answer, Sunday—the first day of the week; but I am not satisfied with this explanation. Sunday belongs indeed to the Lord, but the Scriptures nowhere call it “the Lord’s day.” None of the Christian writings, for 100 years after Christ, ever call it “the Lord’s day.” But there is a “Day of the Lord” largely treated by prophets, apostles, and fathers, the meaning of which is abundantly clear and settled. It is that day in which, Isaiah says, men shall hide in the rocks for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty;—the day which Joel describes as the day of destruction from the Almighty, when the Lord shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake;—the day to which the closing chapter of Malachi refers as the day that shall burn as an oven, and in which the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings;—the day which Paul proclaimed from Mars’ Hill as that in which God will judge the world, concerning which he so earnestly exhorted the Thessalonians, and which was not to come until after a great apostasy from the faith, and the ripening of the wicked for destruction;—the day in the which, Peter says, the heavens shall be changed, the elements melt, the earth burn, and all present orders of things give way to new heavens and a new earth;—even “the day for which all other days were made.” And in that day I understand John to say, he in some sense was. In the mysteries of prophetic rapport, which the Scriptures describe as “in Spirit,” and which Paul declared inexplicable, he was caught out of himself, and out of his proper place and time, and stationed amid the stupendous scenes of the great day of God, and made to see the actors in them, and to look upon them transpiring before his eyes,that he might write what he saw, and give it to the Churches. This is what I understand by his being “in Spirit in the Lord’s day.” I can see no essential difference between ἡ Κυριακη ἡμερα—the Lord’s day, and ἡ ἡμερα Κυριου—the day of the Lord. They are simply the two forms for signifying the same relations of the same things” (J. A. Seiss, The Apocalypse: Lectures on the Book of Revelation). A good study of the subject is Ranko Stefanovic’s “The Lord’s Day” of Revelation 1:10 in the Current Debate, Andrews University Seminary Studies, Vol. 49, No. 2, 2011, pp. 261-284.
4 See the author’s study, How “Near” is the Day of the Lord?
©2013 Don Samdahl. Anyone is free to reproduce this material and distribute it, but it may not be sold.
Now your messing with my head.
I have always been lead to believe, and it has always made sense and uncannily matches with church history, the interpretation that sees the various ages of the church through history and the description of the 7 churches in revelation.
I have never come across your take on it.
Even Theodore H Epp taught the down through the ages theory.
I am also pretty sure Dwight Pentecost does as well in his amazing work…”Things to Come”.
If it is a complete invention as you state, it is uncannily accurate.
Can you point me in the direction of some other authors who agree with you?
Also, what is your understanding of the following:
Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. (Revelation 1:19 NKJV)
Ron G
Ron,
I do not care if anyone agrees with me. One has to have a very accommodating view of history for the ages theory to work. It’s one of those things that got popular and many jumped on the bandwagon. It’s fluff. If you want to understand Revelation, read Bullinger. The language Jesus used to address the 7 “churches” is completely alien to Paul’s language. It’s all Jewish. Revelation 1.19 is simply the command for John to write all that he has seen, not just what he had witnessed in the previous verses.
In another article on this blog by Pember 1885 he says
He clearly holds to the 7 churches ages of history theory.
So why do you use his material on this blog if you don’t agree with his hermeneutics?
I am not trying to be difficult or argumentative.
I really appreciate this site and have learnt a great deal from it.
Ron G
Pember was right about many things but in this was wrong (as many have been and continue to be). The problem with such a theory is twofold: 1) specifics are lacking; one can select any criteria to fit the age. One might as well adopt Elliot’s hermeneutic. 2) the 7 “churches” were not Christian churches; they were Jewish. Nothing about them reflects Pauline doctrine. Why would anyone seek to chart Christian history with non-Christian, i.e., Jewish “churches?”
Dr. Samdahl: would you recommend a sound commentary on the Book of Revelation.
Greg,
Bullinger’s is the best place to start for sound interpretation. Available online.
Recently I wrote to a website about Rev. and the 7 churches, etc. I said that Rev was written to Jews and they are to be kings and priests, not Christians. Here is the response I received. Quote:
“The seven churches described in Revelation 2-3 are seven literal churches at the time that John the apostle wrote Revelation. Though they were literal churches in that time, there is also spiritual significance for churches and believers today. The main purpose of the letters was to communicate with the literal churches and meet their needs at that time. The church re-appears in chapter 19 as the bride of Christ which is the true redeemed church.
Jesus is telling one of the churches: “But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations.” (Revelation 2:25-26)
Regarding the believers being kings and priest unto God here is further explanation
“And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, (both gentiles and Jews) 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10
The people Jesus purchased with His blood are said to be “kings and priests to our God.”
The saints of God are destined to reign with Christ. When Jesus reigns, the saints will also reign. This shows that Jesus will share His kingdom authority with His followers. In Revelation 2:26, Jesus promised His followers that he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
Revelation 5:10 shows that the kingdom of Jesus is future, “and we shall reign.” Now this reign will occur only after the second coming of Jesus as described in Revelation 20:4-6.
So then, Revelation 5:10 and Revelation 20:4 are connected.
Revelation 5:10: “and we shall reign on earth.” (a promise for those who are already in heaven)
Revelation 20:4: “but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(a promise for those who are martyred during the tribulation and come to life again to reign with Christ)
Both groups are promised to reign with Christ during a thousand years here on a renewed earth.” Unquote.
I noticed here that the writer never says Jews. Is this the typical interpretation of most of Christendom? I see no mention of Israel.
Craig,
The great error in interpreting Revelation is the failure to see it is all Jewish in concert with the Gentile nations. Not one word in the book concerns the Church, the body of Christ. John was an apostle of the Jews. He wrote only to Jews, just like James, Peter, and Jude. Paul is the only one who wrote to the Church, the body of Christ. Unless you understand this, you cannot correctly understand the Scriptures.
Your page about the real bride of Christ brought me here. I imagine I will ask a question or two on that subject but as for this subject and “enduring,” Hypothetical question if you will… I’m so confused I don’t even know how to ask this. I am a gentile that has faith in Jesus, a personal relationship with him and bears Godly fruit. If I live to see all/most/some of the events of the last days as described in Revelations what will save me or will I be raptured prior to them? If I die before the anti-christ reveals himself then my faith would save me? If I die after he reveals himself but reject him and hold fast to Jesus, then I have endured and will be saved? Or because I am not Jewish, I will be raptured? Based on all those questions I guess I want to know where the gentiles fit in when the anti-christ reveals himself?
Hova,
All who have believed Paul’s gospel, that Christ died for our sins and arose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15.1-4) are saved and members of the Church, the body of Christ. All in this category will experience the Rapture when the Lord returns. It is that event in which members of the body of Christ receive resurrection bodies. Some will be alive and be changed, never to experience death, as Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 15.51-52. I think my articles, The Rapture and The Day of Christ will answer many of your questions. What is going on in Revelation is a whole new ballgame. No members of the body of Christ are there. They are gone. Everything in Revelation concerns Jews and the nations (see 1 Corinthians 10.32) for the categories of man. During the Tribulation the gospel of the kingdom will again be preached. This gospel’s focus is upon the identity of Christ, not his work. To be saved requires faith in the identity of Christ, that He is the true God, not the pretender, the Antichrist.
Hello Don,
Hope you are well. Thank you for your endless supply of answers. This is what you said. All who have believed Paul’s gospel, that Christ died for our sins and arose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15.1-4) are saved and members of the Church, the body of Christ. All in this category will experience the Rapture when the Lord returns. I have copied and pasted what you said. Here is my question.
The Catholics believes this.
The Emerging church believes this.
The Charasmatic church believe this.
The Baptists believe this.
The Pentecostals believe this.
Are all the above saved by Grace and are raptured.? whether they follow only Pauls Gospel or not. There are those I know who don’t only follow Pauls Gospels but apply the Epistles to their daily living but also believe, that Christ died for our sins and arose from the dead. They are a mixture of OT/NT. Very Typical of most Christians (I being one of them in the past, yet I know I was saved whilst under this false teaching.)
So what damage was I doing to myself whilst assuming the Epistles was written for me. Please don’t think I am challenging you in any way but its my deep thinking process that has caused me to ask this question. Hope I make sense. The discussions still continue in our family. Thank you.
Vanessa,
Everyone who believes Paul’s gospel is saved and will experience the Rapture. Paul’s gospel is faith + 0. I do not think Roman Catholic doctrine teaches this. I believe they teach one is saved by faith and works. As for damage, I think we all are damaged in some way. God looks upon the heart. He will supply truth and light as we desire it. Our part is to respond in obedience once we know it. And God will reward those who are faithful.
I agree with you that the letters to the 7 churches doctrinally apply to assemblies during the Tribulation, however, can one state dogmatically that historically these were purely Jewish churches who were saved by believing the gospel of the kingdom?
The apostle John uses the same opening remarks as Paul in his church epistles : “Grace…..peace…”
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne
In verse 5 John says: “….Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
This sounds very “Pauline” to me?
Stan,
The ground is solid to state dogmatically that these were Jewish assemblies. Yes, John used “grace…peace” and stated that Christ loved us and released us from our sins through His blood. But we must look at the overall context. In Revelation 1.6, he stated that Christ made “us” kings and priests. Paul never declared this to the Church. Kingship and priesthood was the province of Israel that went back to Exodus 19.6. Peter, whom we know wrote to Jews (1 Peter 1.1) used this same language (1 Peter 2.9). As the message progresses in the letters, the language the Lord used was all Jewish. Paul never used this kind of language to the body of Christ. We are never told that we will have salvation based upon overcoming.
Good points-thanks. So these Jewish believers were NOT in the body of Christ, hence their salvation was based upon faith in Jesus Christ PLUS overcoming.
In one of your other articles you stated Paul was saved by the kingdom gospel so when did he become a member of the body of Christ?
I have always believed the body of Christ started in Acts 2, I know it was FIRST revealed to Paul but just because something has not been revealed doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t exist. That being the case the Jewish believers in Revelation would have been in the body of Christ and therefore saved by faith alone. However, if the body of Christ started later with Paul then this would make sense. I guess basically what you are saying is that there was a period of transition where there were two types of believers, those in the body of Christ and those Jews who were saved by the gospel of the kingdom, and it is these latter who belonged to the churches in Revelation?
Do you believe that the 7 churches can at least be seen as types of the churches in the church age?
Stan,
Correct. These believers were/will not be body of Christ believers. Their salvation was based upon the kingdom Gospel and in the future will be based upon the gospel of the kingdom (see Matthew 24.14) and specifically upon overcoming–rejecting the Antichrist and acceptance of Christ as the true God. We really can’t know when Paul became a member of the body of Christ. All he wrote was that he was “first” (πρῶτος). We can know the Church, the body of Christ, did not began in Acts 2 (even though that is what 99% of Christendom teaches) by the definition of the body of Christ–that no difference exists in Jew and Gentile in Christ. Peter addressed Jew only. He knew nothing of Gentile salvation at this point and the concept of equality was completely alien to his thinking. Look at his response in Acts 10 and the Jewish believers in Acts 11! And that was probably 5-7 years after Pentecost. The concept of salvation by faith alone began with Paul. No one knew anything about it before him. See my article on Faith and Works in James for more information. I think we depart from sound exegesis to see the 7 churches in Revelation as types for the Church age.
are you kidding, how about, this, “Eternal life is received by grace through faith. Faith is the victory that overcomes the world and without faith it is impossible to please God (1 John 5:4; Heb 11:6). ” “Jesus says, I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.” Or how about John 3:16, “”For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17″For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…” So How can you say that jews are not saved by faith alone or whatever you were saying, as though they are somehow saved differently than gentiles?
Nica,
Faith has always been required for salvation but Scripture does not support salvation by faith alone before Paul. Read Acts 2.36-38, 15.1,5; Mark 1.4, 16.16, 10.17-22; Matthew 6.14-15. The Scriptures you referenced are not faith alone. They require faith, which was always the case, but not faith alone. The reason people think salvation has always been by faith alone is because Paul has been read into the Old Testament and gospels. But if you read the OT and gospels apart from Paul one would never get this idea. See my articles, Is John 3:16 Christian? and Faith vs. Works in James: Resolving the Problem.
Hi Don.
There is an interesting point David O’Steen makes in his revelation commentary. We all have looked at the 7 churches but this thought is the most reasonable to me so far seeing as the language is Jewish.
He sees them being:
7 STAGES OF ISRAEL’S HISTORY
-in the wilderness
1. Ephesus= Israel’s spousal (The exodus & Jer. 2:2)
2. Smyrna= Israel’s testing (tried in the wilderness)
3. Pergamos= Israel’s failure (Balaam &Balak)
– in the land
4. Thyatira= The day of Israel’s kings(Jezebel)
5. Sardis= Israel removed ( art dead)
6. Philadelphia= the day of Judah’s kings (key of
David )
7. Laodicea=Judah’s removal= (spue out,
Lev. 18:28)
Isn’t that interesting… Here is the link to this commentary if anyone is interested. He does preach Paul just fyi.
http://hopebiblechurchga.com/menu/id/154/Writings
Also there is a verse talking about manna. Only Israel get the manna.
Thanks for taking the time to put out your thoughts on these matters.
I have read through a number of your teachings and have enjoyed looking at things from a different perspective.
To be honest, some offer a perspective that I have not held so have found it challenging … but that’s the good thing about Scripture, there’s plenty tucked away in there to keep you on your toes.
During my studies at Bible College, I was introduced to an excellent text book by David DeSilva – An Introduction to the NT – who, when exegeting the book of Revelation – poured scorn on the approach that many believe is a pattern laid out in the 7 letters [and reflected in your study in chart form].
I fully understand why he [and you] do this from a purely exegetical position but do you not consider that Scripture is far more than one dimensional in the way that we can/should view it?
Especially Scripture that is so clearly prophetic and apocalyptic in it’s nature.
Sir Robert Anderson in his book ‘The Coming Prince’ wrote:
Narrowness of interpretation is the bane of apocalyptic study.
You do not have to dig too far in to his background to realize that this fella was no fool – and while that does not mean he was infallible, it does give you confidence in his ability to dig into and investigate things.
Sir Robert Anderson saw in Revelation a similar pattern laid out in these 7 letters – and as the quote suggests, managed to avoid a narrowness of interpretation.
This church age interpretation is not the only way that these 7 letters can be interpreted – it is but one interpretation & I see no reason why it cannot run alongside other interpretations.
We draw our roots from the Jewish faith – it is quite well established that Scripture is interpreted in a number of ways without diminishing the value of it.
Biblical interpretation has always followed a number of pathways – P’shat [plain literal translation], Remez [the hint of something below the surface], Drash or Midrash [homiletic sermon type interpretation] and Sod [something hidden].
In view of this, I believe all are valid forms that can be used to understand the meaning of Scripture.
Rev 1:19 appears to give us an indicator as to how the book of Revelation should be viewed:
• Write the things you have seen [past tense]
• And the things that are [present tense – letters to Churches].
• And the things that which will take place after this [future tense & Chapter 4 onwards]
Chapter 4 starts with Μετὰ ταῦτα [After these] ie, the churches – the whole shape of Revelation is very Jewish in its make up.
These letters are laid out in a particular order – from Ephesus to Laodicea – the letter travels north fm Ephesus through Smyrna & Pergamos – then heads south through Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and ends in Laodicea.
It is quite possible that this was a circular letter – read first in the Ephesian church – then passed on to the next church on the route.
All these cities were important trade & communication centres – connected by major roads in NT times – each no more than 1 to 2 days walk apart.
The content of each letter can be applied locally – collectively [all the churches] – personally & prophetically.
So when looking to see how it speaks prophetically you can draw detail from the order that the churches are recorded and as such, the letters would appear to mirror the development of the church through the ages.
I do not think that there is a distinct ‘cut off’ date setting between the Church Ages [as your chart shows] – there is much cross over and within every age we see some transitional aspects.
[Come to think of it, date setting by any church is a bit of a nonsense].
When I say church – I am inclined to think of the institutional church [rather than the relational church] in particular.
Ephesus = Apostolic Church
Smyrna = Persecuted Church
Pergamos = Married Church [with State]
Thyatira = Medieval Church
Sardis = Reformation/Denominational Church
Philadelphia = Missionary Church
Laodicea = Apostate Church
There are also some common features found in each letter which effectively make up 7 design elements:
• Name of the Church
• Description/Title for Christ
• Commendation for achievement
• Concern raised
• Exhortation to lift the game
• Promise to the Overcomer
• Concluding phrase – ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches’
This concluding phrase is interesting in so much as it emphasizes that it is for the one who has ‘an ear to hear’ – which would mean ‘all people’, not just Jews but Gentiles included.
If valid, this prophetic interpretation also speaks volumes when we come to the much quoted and in my opinion, misapplied verse – Rev 3:20:
‘For behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with Me.’
This verse has nothing to do with Jesus knocking on the door of your heart to enter in for salvation but relates to the fact that He is no longer in the church and has been put out.
If you consider [just for a moment] that this links to the Apostate Church, then where better for Jesus to be stood, than outside, knocking to come back in. What a massive demonstration of grace!
I don’t think you have to look too far these days to see how Jesus is being sidelined by what I would term the institutional church. Let’s face it, He is what makes the difference between what we term Christianity and any other religion in the world.
If He is removed, then our faith is just one more religious belief in ‘God’ that can easily be reconciled with other religious beliefs.
I know that you have previously said, you don’t care whether anyone agrees with you but I would just encourage you to continue with the great content and if possible, consider whether there is indeed something in the comment,
Narrowness of interpretation is the bane of apocalyptic study?
Who knows? You may find even greater revelation ;)
Blessings.
Steve,
One of the first principles of sound interpretation is the principle of one interpretation, several applications. The first order of exegesis is to interpret a passage in its content. With regard to the Revelation churches nothing in them indicates they were Christian, i.e., body of Christ, Pauline churches. They were/will be Jewish churches composed of those who had been and will be saved by believing the gospel of the kingdom. This is what Jesus taught in Matthew 24.14 and what He proclaimed to these assemblies. Thus, we have is a double fulfillment–past and future. Why impose any of this on Christian churches? All Scripture is for us but not all Scripture is to us. The Scriptures will interpret themselves if we let them. We must let Israel be Israel and the Church the Church.
May I just take your last point first.
I absolutely 100% agree with you, the church is the church and Israel is Israel.
Each have a different origin, each a different purpose & ultimately, each a different destiny.
The church will never complete its God given mission if it seeks to work out the Great Commission in Matthew 28. This, in my opinion, is something that is for the Jewish nation to complete at a later date.
In your excellent piece on Pauls Mystery, you note that the gospel has changed several times throughout history & cite a number of examples, noting that the Gospel of the Kingdom comes to a close at or around the time of Acts 15:11.
It was surely at this point that there was some form of accord in terms of how the Gospel of the Kingdom would transition to the Gospel of Grace and from that point onwards, any salvation would only come through faith + 0 i.e. no works to complement the grace on offer.
Around nine years later, after things had come to a head at the Council of Jerusalem, Paul wrote to the Colossians. This would have been around 60 to 61 AD and it is clear from the text that he also expected his writings to be shared with other churches in the region, one of which was the church in Laodicea.
Does not the reference in Col4:15-16 suggest that the church in Laodicea was one under Pauline influence?
If so, would not this be the same church that John refers to in the last letter in Revelation 3? Made up of believers who had been taught the Gospel of Grace?
Pauls letter to the Ephesians, would also have likely been written between 60-62 AD as it forms part of Paul’s prison epistles along with Philippians, Colossians [as mentioned] and Philemon.
Again, would this not be the first church that John refers to in the first letter of Revelation 2?
Even at it’s earliest dating, the book of Revelation was written around 64 AD and 96 AD at the latest. This would still place Johns writing at least three years after Paul had sent circular letters throughout the region teaching that salvation is by the grace of God and not of works.
I find it difficult to reconcile that from 61 AD onwards, one or more of the other Apostles were still teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. Therefore, Revelation would not be addressed to congregations made up of Jewish believers who were unaware of the Gospel of Grace as revealed to Paul.
I note your point on interpretation in its content and ask does not content also mean our understanding of the social context and other information that supports the interpretation?
The fact that the style of Revelation is not Pauline, does not mean it doesn’t share the same Pauline end game. You and I have a different way of expressing our thoughts on paper, yet we have a common faith and common foundation – although the way we place words on a page may not convey that on analysis of the linguistics alone.
Sorry to bother you with the response but it has been on my mind this week and so thought I would ask.
Steve,
Chronology is a knotty matter for we have few concrete markers. This is why chronologists disagree. I think these were different sets of believers based upon the language to them. I explain my reasoning for my dating of Revelation in the footnote. We know that after Paul returned from Arabia/Damascus (37-40 A.D.) until the Council of Jerusalem (51 A.D.) two gospel were valid. After that only one–Paul’s. Does this mean Revelation was written before 51 A.D.? Does it mean that Revelation had no 1st century application but only a future application? Did the 4 assemblies (not mentioned elsewhere) exist or will they be future? Lots of questions.
I am intrigued by your approach. In fact I have been studying a lot of new approaches to Revelation lately, despite the fact that I had been quite comfortable in my dispensationalist, pre-trib understanding up to now. But my current pastors have led me to rethink.
What I don’t get though, is how you could say that Paul teaches a different gospel than the one Jesus preached Himself? How could anything contradict or update Christ?
And how was the church not started at Pentecost? No essential element of the church was missing that I can see. The fact that the Gentiles as a group were yet to be recognized as believers is just an administrative detail, as it were. They were always part of the plan and Jesus says so more than once in the Gospels. Even as a dispensationalist I can’t see there being different gospels.
Perhaps there is another term for the distinction you are drawing that would help me to understand. Interested in your reply.
Amy,
Paul’s gospel, which he received directly from the risen Lord (Galatians 1.1, 11-12), was that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). Do you find anyone else preaching this for salvation? Please see my articles, The Gospel, and The Gospel of the Kingdom. Peter was saved by believing WHO Jesus was, not WHAT he would do (die for our sins and be raised)–see Matthew 16 and John 11 to see what he (and Martha) believed for salvation. As to the Church beginning at Pentecost, the Scriptures provide no evidence of this. Pentecost was a Jewish feast. The advent of the Holy Spirit was a Jewish promise (the New covenant, Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31). Peter addressed only Jews at Pentecost. He had no thought of ministering to Gentiles. In fact, no Gentile evangelism occurred for several years–until after Paul was saved. Jesus did not minister to Gentiles in the gospels (with a couple of exceptions) and ordered His disciples not to go to them (Matthew 10.5-6). The Church is that body in which Jew and Gentile are equal in Christ. No one revealed that the Church was the body of Christ except Paul. No other writer even mentions it. My articles, Paul’s “Mystery” and Why Paul? may make these things more clear.
If John was exiled to the Island of Patmos when he wrote Revelation, would that not have been around 90-95 AD during the reign of Emperor Domitian?
Patricia,
The text reads, “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Revelation 1.9). We’re not told under what circumstances John was on Patmos just that he was there for the word of God and testimony of Christ. Why do you think he was there 90-95 A.D.?
thanks for your response and excellent ministry
my study Bibles indicate that Revelation was written 90-95. However, as you point out, it makes more sense to date this book to the 50s especially in light of the fact that there is no mention in John’s writings about the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
peace and blessings
Patricia,
Thank you. Almost everyone dates John’s writing in the 90s. Almost everyone is wrong. The evidence for such dating is questionable. Furthermore, Paul wrote he completed the Scriptures (Colossians 1.25). So 2 Timothy was the last book written. Several other problems attend such a late date for John. The main one is no mention of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. J.A.T. Robinson called this “the dog that did not bark.”
Don, I heard a pastor say that the church of Philadelphia will not go through the tribulation. That God made that promise to them and if we do what this church did, we will have the opportunity to be saved from the coming trials detailed in Rev. by holding fast to the teachings of Jesus set forth in His word to us and stay on His works, word, name, will, and way.
It is getting very difficult to talk with Christians now about the Bible and Bible study is so full of disagreements.
Craig,
The 7 “churches” of Revelation 2-3 are Jewish assemblies. If you read the language all go through the Tribulation and Jesus’ warning to them is to overcome. If they do they will have life. They have nothing to do with various ages of Church history. That whole notion is error.
Thanks for taking the time to respond – I appreciate it.
I will continue to pick at the knots & thanks for stretching my understanding.
Excellent!
Regarding who John wrote to in Revelation: I agree with the finding that the book is part of prophesy, as are all the non-Pauline books; and therefore, separate from the mystery writings, e.g., Paul’s letters. Revelation is not written to the Body of Christ churches.
I am so blessed that God would let me discover ..doctrine.org
Thank you!
I am blessed by your teachings as well. I’m wondering if you would mind sharing your thoughts on the current events around the world. I’d love to hear your input.
Christina,
Thank you. The world is being prepared for world government. Governments are moving towards greater control of their citizenry. Spying on citizens is increasing–and is accepted. Federal agencies are being armed as never before. Goverments are running massive debts which can never be repaid to the bond holders. The banking system is a house of cards. “Bank holidays” are declared in which banks are closed and people cannot withdraw their money. Bail-ins have occurred (Cyprus) in which depositors lost their savings which were given to unstable banks. Middle-east turmoil is increasing. It will continue. We are witnessing the stage-setting of what will become a totalitarian police-state under the Beast. Apart from the Lord no hope exists. But with God, nothing is impossible!
Sorry, I also would like to ask your opinion on the greetings of the letters to the assemblies. As addressed to the angels of each assembly and the assembly itself (to the seven stars from 1 hand and the lampstands in the other), do these angels have a territory? Would they have been there 2000 years ago and also today? The OT seems to suggest that angels do have areas in which they have (for lack of a better description) a jurisdiction? Just curious on your thoughts. I read that Turkey today is 99% Muslim. A friend of mine also thought that Israel, in the last days, could possibly be split into 2 territories from references in Isaiah. I have not researched that myself, but naturally thought of Judah and Israel. Any thoughts you could share?
Christina,
It makes sense angels have assigned areas. Michael and Gabriel have a special relationship to Israel. The “prince of Persia,” a fallen angel opposed Michael and another angel sent to answer Daniel’s prayer (Daniel 10). Satan has an organization to rule earth as the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4.4). God will restore all of Israel to Himself (see Ezekiel 37).
Thank you so much! There are so few I can discuss these matters with… this is wonderfully refreshing!
I have always viewed the 7 assemblies to be the 7 continents of the world.
Simply, Revelations speaks to all of the earth. I do not know which assembly is which continent but given some thought to this perhaps you can tell me.
txs
Regina,
If you read the 7 letters carefully you will see the language and allusions are all Jewish. Revelation is a book that speaks primarily to Jews and the nations (Gentiles). It does not concern the Church, the body of Christ, for God has removed it from the earth. It is book that describes the deceit of the Antichrist and God’s wrath upon the whole world. It fulfills the prophecies of the prophets.
Hi Don,
Would you also share what you think of the established ( organised ) church.
Many believe they are going to Christianise the globe before Jesus returns and that there will be a great revival.
Also, they think that the Holy Spirit will bring power from on high so that signs and wonders especially healings ( with that an ability to raise people from the dead) will increase. These people are expecting a ‘double portion of the anointing’ ( Elijah comes to mind) so they can then lay on hands and pass it all on.
Sue,
No Scripture supports the idea that the Church will Christianize the globe or that signs and wonders will appear. On the contrary, apostasy will increase as we are seeing. Our attitude is to be Paul’s 1 Corinthians 9.19-23. Signs and miracles will return after the Church is gone and Jesus warned to be wary of deceit (Matthew 24.4-5, 11, 24). Signs and miracles were for Israel, not Gentiles or the Church (1 Corinthians 1.22).
Hi Don
Where will Jesus be when the Davidic Kingdom is in place?
Sue,
After His return, Jesus will occupy David’s throne (Luke 1.32) and rule the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14.9, 16).
Hi Don
What does Ezekiel 37: 24 refer to then?
Sue,
Hard question. Some verses speak of David reigning while others of Christ reigning. Some have speculated David will reign as a regent but no one knows how this will work out.
Hi Don,
I see this scripture as David actually ruling. And that is why Jesus is King…..of Kings.
Hi doc
Who and what are the 24 thrones? I’m a bit confused
thanks.
Gerry,
Impossible to know. Revelation is a book which primarily focuses upon Israel and secondarily upon the nations. On this basis, the 24 thrones probably relate to Israel. Jesus promised the Twelve 12 thrones (Matthew 19.28). What the other 12 thrones could be is not revealed.
I’m learning so much from your topics. Thank you again, may GOD continue to bless you
Gerry,
Thank you.
I have spent more time and money studying the book of Rev.than any other book.i have great and deep appreciation for all you r articles. Your work and position on the book of Rev. Is wonderfull. As an Baptist I take your position on baptism. Any thoughts on it for me with out causing strife which I will not do?
Courtney,
My goal is to reveal the Scriptures. By the time Paul wrote the Ephesians one baptism was valid–the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He places us into the body of Christ when we believe the gospel. Water baptism ended. All believers are baptists in the sense of believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Thus, with regard to the Nicene Creed, a believer can state belief in one baptism. As we look at denominations water baptism divides. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit unites.
Flummoxed
Paul says concerning his gospel of grace that those teaching anything other than the what he teaches ‘let them be cursed’.
John appears to be teaching ‘overcoming’ at about the same time (50’s)as part of salvation.
I’m pretty sure John was not cursed.
Where is my error?
good site,
Joe
Joe,
After God removes the Church, the gospel of the kingdom will be reinstituted (Matthew 24.14). Salvation will once again be based upon the identity of Christ–that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, not the pretender, the Antichrist. This is what “overcoming” will mean as the Lord taught in chapters 2-3.
But my point was that these words were put down by John and Paul at possibly the same time (50’s AD). What would the readers at that time have thought?
On a totally different subject…..Why do we believe the temple was built on what is today considered the temple mount? Is it just tradition? There were not to be stones on each other. The wailing wall has stacked up stones. There is evidence that the temple was built in the City of David several thousand feet to the south. Josephus mentions that the temple could not be seen from the north of the city of the first century……The Roman soldiers came ‘down’ the steps to the temple site when Paul got into trouble for saying the word ‘gentile’. ……………..
Joe,
The location of the Temple is not an area I have researched but sounds like an interesting topic.
Can you imagine the stripped gears if this monkey wrench were thrown into the mix? No road blocks to building the temple for one. There’s a recent book. I guess it can be googled. “Temple”?
Joe,
This would be fitting. See an earlier book: http://askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm.
I thoroughly enjoy your site! Could you explain to me the difference between the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the rapture and those at the First resurrection described in Revelation 20:5. Are the resurrected in Rev 20 not in glorified bodies? Why is this called the first resurrection, if there is a resurrection at the time of the rapture? Thank you so much for you site. I love the Lord and this site has truly helped me grow in my understanding.
Keri,
Thank you. I think my article, The Resurrection, would best explain this.
Interesting column on why Revelation was written after 70AD
https://returnofbenjamin.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/blast-from-the-past-revelation-was-not-written-before-70-ad
Joe,
The Irenaeus statement quoted by Eusebius is weak support for a post-70 A.D. composition. No one is sure what the word “it” refers to, i.e., the visions, the book, or John himself. Internal evidence strongly supports a pre-70 A.D. Unfortunately, some have argued a late date to support Dispensationalism. A late date provides little support for Dispensationalism but an early date is essential for Preterism. But the main point is to stay with the text: it will lead to sound theology.
The bride is redeemed Israel. Jesus is the bridegroom. In the marriage supper of the Lamb, who are the guests? who are the friends of the bridegroom (except John the Baptist), where are we, the church? Would you please explain? Thank you.
Kim,
I really don’t know. Perhaps angels.
The Church is the Bride of Christ. Israel is described as the wife of Jehovah in the OT, but the Church is the Bride.
Amy,
Please see my article, The Bride of Christ. The Scriptures state the Church is the Body of Christ, not the Bride of Christ.
Great article. You have a wonderful ability to summarize hundreds of pages of information into just a few pages. I’m happy to see you directly reference Bullinger’s Commentary. Per chance, is there time in your busy schedule to explain the arcane outlining system Bullinger uses?
Maranatha,
Bob
Bob,
Thank you for your kind words. Bullinger’s Revelation should be the start point for all study of Revelation. I’m not exactly sure I understand your outline question but will take a shot. Maybe you mean chiasm? (A, B, C, B’, A’) Bullinger used chiasm to outline much of the Scriptures. This is true of Revelation as well as his work in the Companion Bible. Here are a couple websites to tweak your interest: http://www.bible-discernments.com/joshua/whatisachiasm_two.html and http://chiasmusxchange.com/. The structure of chiasm of the Scriptures can be quite revealing. Grace and peace.
Hi doctrine. Thank you for this. The chiasm is hard to understand in Bullingers book. Am over halfway finished with it . I see clearly how Jewish the book is. Even down to the simple term servants. We know that we are called sons and daughters of God, so that’s quite a difference and that’s only the first verse hee hee.
Then all the names of the Lord in the letters to the churches are all old testament and deal with Israel, and the creation. What a beautiful book in that it seems to be a road map for Gods people in these coming days and He is speaking to them I think. It is a great sorrow that it is a time coming and these things will take place, for Israel to be reconciled and for the unbelievers.
One thing I see now is that the letters , admonitions to the 7 churches all regard works and overcoming. However we are overcomes through Christ Jesus and He overcame the world for us! What a loving, wonderful saviour we have.
I have to say my heart goes out to Israel. My prayer for this people is that they come to know Christ now.
Don, what do you think of the different dispensation theory that we are in the 5th? Then there is a judgement dispensation, then 7th will be millennium on earth? Or where are we ?
Also I’m twisted with the big crowd in Rev.7. First he said one thing then something else. Is it gentiles or ?
Also Bullinger thinks the 7 churches are future churches in that time, a different dispensation, That’s interesting for then they will know exactly what they have to do. If that is so, it’s awesome they will have it!
I pray that all who will come to Christ will come now.
Bobbi,
The chiastic structure shows how intricately the Scriptures are woven. Revelation 7.9, 13-14 are those killed by the Beast for their faith. The 7 churches were/are present and future. The Lord had not closed the prophetic door on Israel at the time John wrote. The events could have taken place had the nation repented. Since they would not, these assemblies will exist in the future.
Doc,
So are these the ones we saw we saw in chapter 6, under the alter that were given white robes? For now they have palm branches too. I know they are martyrs. Are these then saved under the Kingdom gospel or because of their testimony do you think?
Also this is different teaching than I’ve had so it’s like starting over. Hope these questions don’t seem foolish. Am going to finish reading the book then go back and read it again, now that I understand the word structures. Also it says there was no Thyatira church at the time Revelation was written.
Bobbi,
Yes to Revelation 6.9. On the dispensations matter, I see things a bit differently. The 7 dispensations became popular, largely through the Scofield Bible. I do not disagree with them. But I believe the divisions I write about in The Framework of Scripture are easier to understand and more helpful.
Hi Don,
Thank you for your work, it is truly inspiring.
My question is this…the church at Ephesis is in Revelation and is Jewish.
Who then did Paul write to? Was it the same church?
Can one compare the book of Ephesians (the “in Christ” letter) to the church of the Ephesians in Revelation?
Thanx,
Vernon.
Vernon,
Impossible to know for sure but most likely a different congregation. If Revelation was written early it was definitely different. If late, it could have been the same church who had abandoned Paul (2 Timothy 1.15). You might enjoy the article by Matthew McGee.
Should be 2 Tim. 1:15. (Never noticed this till you pointed in out in one of your lectures.)
Anders,
Thanks!
I had heard of Bullinger but never read any of his work. So I have spent some time doing so. Why is his work seemingly ignored for the most part?
He has been labeled a “hyper-dispensationalist”. I imagine you get labeled that too. Is that “bad”? What are the arguments that are used against it?
Thank you again
Dawn,
Bullinger was a tireless scholar who made many wonderful contributions to believers. His Figures of Speech is the standard text on the subject and will remain so. His commentary on Revelation is essential reading for anyone wishing to understand the book. His Companion Bible is a classic. The biggest problem with Bullinger was his view that the Church began after Acts 28. Those who hold this are known as Acts 28 dispensationalists. This view is clearly wrong. Paul wrote about the Church, the body of Christ, to the Corinthians about 57 A.D., before he reached Rome. The unfortunate thing is that while Bullinger was wrong, critics of “hyper-dispensationalism” (an unfortunate term as ever was) lump everyone together in their attacks. Included are people like J.C. O’Hair, Cornelius Stam, Les Feldick, who believe the Church began with Paul around Acts 9 or 13. Stam was a godly man and his book, Holding Fast the Faithful Word, reveals the venomous attacks from big name dispensationalists against him. It’s an excellent read for it points out the issues but it is also a sad read for it shows that even highly regarded men have feet of clay.
This scripture is now crystal clear:
AFTER THIS I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be Hereafter
After what? After Jesus gave John the 7 letters to the churches, Jesus proceeds to call John “up hither” to be in the Day of the Lord and show these 7 churches how to “overcometh” in the time of Jacobs trouble!!
And NOT after the so called church age is over that is commonly taught.
Wow do things get easy to understand once we take the Body of Christ out of the Book of Revelation!!
So, Don, are you asked to speak at other churches? At Prophecy conferences? You would certainly shake things up and expose so many false teachings.
My bible study friends are not receptive to this message at this time. Not to mention my pastor whom I hold in very high esteem. How do I handle that? Go to him? I have not done this yet. I don’t think it would go over well. But who knows?
He has always been a man who goes by line and verse. And he takes the bible literally. But does preach the common misconceptions like the church being the Bride.
I will pray for wisdom.
Dawn,
Thank you. The Lord has not opened the door for me to speak to other churches. On the matter of receptivity, God will enlighten those who desire it. In my case, I had a treasury of theological knowledge but was ignorant of Paul’s distinctive ministry. I heard a message from someone far less educated than I and thought, “He’s right; I’m wrong.” I have never looked back. That’s all it takes. One must be willing to lay aside non-Biblical tradition for the Word of God. If one is teachable, God will reveal the Scriptures. Sometimes, just dropping a question will do the trick, e.g., why is going to heaven never taught in the OT? Why did Peter not proclaim Christ’s death and resurrection for salvation at Pentecost? Why did the Jews at Jerusalem tell Paul his converts were not saved? Grace and peace.
Hi Don,
Thank you for your great website and the deep word of God. I was raised in a works based religion and lived scared and confused most of my life. Over the past two years, I prayed for the truth. I ran across Les Feldick website and have spoken with him on the phone, a wonderful man of God and now I have found your website that confirms the things I have been seeing in Gods word. My question is associated with the 7 churches in Revelation. He gave them promises that they would receive if they were overcomers, this bothered me for a while but I found the following verses and would like to know if you agree with what I see.
1 John chapter 5:4-5
4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world, even our faith.
5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Would not this support that these churches were back under the Kingdom gospel and not Paul because they are require to believe Who he is and not What he did?
Appreciate our thoughts, God Bless
Kathy,
Thank you and may the Lord continue to lead you. They were Jewish assemblies, part of the kingdom program. See my article, Understanding the Book of Revelation.
Don
Thank you for your response that is what I thought also, if you don’t mind can you clarify something else for me. I understand Paul was sent for the Body of Christ. But my question is… Peter and the 11 taught the Kingdom gospel but at the council meeting in Acts Peter stood up and defended Paul’s Gospel of grace, and said we also believe as they, so would Peter be part of the Body or part of the Jewish kingdom program still?
Sorry Don, also what about Paul he was saved under the old program but received the revelations later, so would he be part of the Body or the Kingdom? These are the things that is confusing me and I would appreciate your insight, Thanks so much.
Kathy,
Paul was saved under the kingdom program. However, he was the “first” and the “master-builder” of the Church. So he definitely is a member of the body of Christ. Please see my article, Paul: Chief of Sinners?
Kathy,
No, Peter remained in the kingdom program. Remember, he and the rest of the twelve will rule Israel’s tribes (Matthew 19.28). Peter’s destiny and that of the other apostles is with believing Israel, not the Church, the body of Christ.
Thanks so much and God Bless you for taking the time to help people like us that are hungry for the truth. I was having a hard time with separating which program they would be under because Peter was given the keys.(Plural) . And Jesus said upon this Rock I will build my church. But now with understanding Peter will remain in the kingdom, could the keys represent the Body (Jews and Gentiles) which he used at Cornelius house to show the door was being open outside of Israel’s program. And the Rock is Christ. Instead of how the church teaches it started with Peter at Pentecost? I don’t mean to bother you but I really want to understand God’s Holy Word
Kathy,
Peter has nothing to do with the Church, the body of Christ. He knew nothing of it until Paul. The Church, the body of Christ, was a Pauline revelation. The Church did not began with Peter in Matthew 16 or at Pentecost as most of Christendom teaches. It began with Paul. Please see my articles, The Church: The Body of Christ, On This Rock, and What Was Pentecost? This is probably shocking as it is not what is taught in seminary or from most pulpits. All I ask readers to do is examine the Scriptures to see if these things are so.
Don
The New Jerusalem comes after the millenium or before it? I always thought it would come after the 1000 years (just because of the sequence on revelation). However now I’m not sure anymore, because of Is 65, which seems to suggest that the millenium kingdom will take place at the new jerusalem (and it would make sense, once jerusalem will be destroyed after the great tribulation, so a new one is needed).
My problem is Rev 21:4 “and there shall be no more death” (because according to Is 65 there will be death), and Rev 21:22 “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it” (according to Ez 40 there will be a millenial temple).
Please, give me your thoughts on this issue!
Thank you so much!
Regards from Brazil!
God bless you!
Bruno,
The order of prophetic events revealed in the OT is unclear. In the NT, especially Revelation, the order is more defined. The New Jerusalem is an element of the new heavens and new earth, which comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Death will occur during those 1,000 years. The temple Ezekiel described will be built during that period. Death will be abolished in the new heavens/earth. The Lord Himself will serve as the temple in the new heavens/earth (Revelation 21.22).
Doc.
Who is John talking about in Rev.5;9 and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. The church ?
Tommy,
John is speaking of redeemed Jews. John wrote to Jews (the assemblies in chapters 2-3 are Jews) and redeemed Jews are promised to be kings and priests (Exodus 19.4-6; 1 Peter 2.9).
Doctrine,
Paul says late in his ministry that all the churches in Asia had turned against him. Is it possible the 7 churches in Revelation had reverted to Jewish assemblies? Does this suggest that Revelation was written after Paul’s epistles? Can it suggest that the Asian (Turkey) churches had moved away from Grace and back toward the law?
Viewed from our perspective today can enough be said about Paul’s decision (based on revelation) to sail to what is considered the ‘West’. To Phillipe (Macedonia) from Troas (Asia)? Except for Israel look at what the Aegean Sea separates us from today.
Joe,
No, I don’t think so. I think these were Jewish assemblies established earlier (cf. James 1.1; 1 Peter 1.1) and that Revelation was written in the 50s. Paul stated he completed the Scriptures (Colossians 1.25) so 2 Timothy is the last book written.
First time on this site. Very informative. Body of Christ is not the Bride of Christ! Never
could figure it out till now. Paul started the church, not Peter and not Pentecost. We as the body of Christ will be gone before tribulation….Israel is the Bride of Christ..We will read
Bullinger…Our Thursday night Bible Study will be taking up Revelation very soon….and
this has blown us away! I thought we were kings and priests in Christ….time to reassess
our position….Thanks for all the clarity on this site!!!!
Jane,
Thank you. May the Lord bless your study of the Scriptures.
Your opinion would be helpful. In thinking a lot about the 7 churches I keep going back to the fact they were\will be in Turkey. Could it be a “clue” that the Anti-Christ is from Turkey? And the persecution of believers starts there or is even concentrated there?
I’ve pretty much concluded they must be active churches during the tribulation. Why else would they be getting instruction to persevere to the end?
Is the tribulation world wide? Or is it mostly in the middle east where events of the Old Testament takes place? Of course the whole world would feel the ripple effects of this.
Dawn,
Those are good questions and I do not know. Answers may not become clear until the Tribulation or shortly before. Turkey was in the realm of ancient Rome and the Antichrist will come out of this realm. The Tribulation is world-wide. Notice the language e.g., Revelation 6.8.
Isn’t interesting that Pergamon is said to be the seat of Satan? Revelation is prophecy so during the tribulation, at least at some point, satan is seated there. Could this indicate the presence of the Anti-Christ? Whatever it is Turkey seems a key player. As though it’s Magog. I never bought it was Russia.
There are some that say that the anti-Christ will be the caliph from Islam and will come from Turkey (Ottoman empire).
Walid Shoebat goes into a lot of detail here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIzyji-eVdY
I think the Protestants read their hatred for the Catholic Church into the scriptures. Islam makes more sense.
Placing these seven churches in the tribulation has no biblical backing! This could be illustrated in many ways, but the easiest would be to have an understanding of the context leading into Rev 2.
Rev 1:13-20 informs us of a couple of facts:
1. The man that John saw was the Lord Jesus Christ v18″I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hades and of death.”
2. He is v13 “in the midst of the candlesticks.”
3. v20 “the candlesticks are the seven churches.” (7 being the number of completion represents the complete church)
4. The description given of Christ in V12-16 is “As Judge.” “girt about the paps with a golden girdle,” “brass”, “fire”, “sword. All Judicial!
THIS IS A SCENE AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST!
Now how do you place the judgement seat of christ on earth and in the midst of the tribulation?
Eric,
The Lord counsels the Jewish assemblies of Revelation 7 to endure the wrath of the Tribulation. If they do they will receive eternal life. These passages expound on Jesus’ dissertation on the Tribulation in Matthew 24.13. These passages clearly have nothing to do with the Church, the body of Christ. The language is wholly Jewish and completely alien from what Paul taught concerning the Church. Keep Israel and the Church separate and everything works. Mix them and confusion and contradiction is the result.
I’m clear on the Church being separate from Israel. I’m also clear on Christ not appearing till the end of the tribulation. Which is the basis for my point. The question you haven’t yet answered:
Does Christ Appear In The Midst Of The Tribulation? ( In the Midst Of These So-Called Jewish Assemblies?) Because that’s what Rev 1:13 states.
Rev 1:13 “And in the midst of these seven candlesticks, one like unto the son of man (Christ).”
Answering this question is the key to understanding why this CAN’T be a vision to a supposed Jewish Assembly on earth during the tribulation (during Man’s day). But rather a vision of the Judgement Seat Of Christ, on “The Lord’s Day.”
PS. (The promise to the church of Laodicea is the throne of Christ not David)
Respectfully,
Eric
Eric,
No time element is present in Revelation 1.13. The seven candlesticks are the 7 assemblies (Revelation 1.20) and John saw the “son of man” in the midst of them. This title always refers to Christ in His earthly operations, particularly His rule (John 5.27). It is never used with reference to the Church. It has nothing to do with the timing of His coming mentioned in verse 7.
You are so right Doctrine! Coming to this site a year ago was a blessing! I knew something was wrong with the messages I had heard in church and I was independently studying on my own with God only as my Teacher; I started to see and notice the differences a long time ago.
Coming here, however, just confirmed even more so my belief in the differences of the Jews and the Gentiles role in Revelation. I did not know, though, that Paul and the Gospels were separate- this helped so much to clear up the cloudiness and confusion with what I had already been studying.
Is Christ in the midst of these 7 Jewish Assemblies? And how? Should this be looked upon in a spiritual manner? What about the way Christ is dressed etc? (The imagery given of him) What is that all about?
Rev.1:12-20
Eric,
The assemblies are warned to endure and given a glimpse of Christ in His glory and dominion. He is in their midst spiritually. This view of Christ is like that of His return. See Daniel 7.9-12.
The church in Laodicea is promised the throne of Christ. Does Israel have a part in the throne of Christ? (Not David’s)
Eric,
Everything in Revelation pertains to Israel. Christ’s throne is David’s throne as He is David’s greater Son.
I see Christ as Judge in this scene however I am interested in knowing what your interpretation is on key verses within Rev 2 & 3 that leads you to believe that this is not the Christian Church.
(Besides the language!)
IPeter 2:1-12 would be a perfect example of how Jewish language so-to-speak is also Christian language. Reading the first 9 verses would lead one to thinking this is wholly-Jewish, then all the sudden we see it’s not. v10 “which in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God.” Obviously referring to Gentiles who became Christians. Then take a look at v11&12 he tells these Gentiles who became Christians that they should abstain and keep their conversation honest, among who? “Amongst the Gentiles.” Clearly in this text “Gentiles” refer to those who are not Christians . Just as the “Jews” in Rev 2&3 would refer to those who are Christians. (understood as follows: “which say they are Jews (Christians) but are not.”
Eric,
1. None of the Twelve had a ministry to Gentiles. John was an apostle of Israel, not the Church. Therefore, he did not write to the Church. The Church has no “priests” (Revelation 1.6). Only Israel.
2. John wrote concerning the Day of the Lord, i.e., the Tribulation (Revelation 1.10). The Church is absent from this day.
3. The Church is never called a candlestick. The tabernacle had candlesticks. See also Zechariah 4. Jesus spoke of candlesticks to the Jews.
Peter wrote to Jewish believers (1 Peter 1.1). The passage you note is wholly Jewish. The Church has no “priests” or “priesthood.” That is Jewish ground (v. 9). Verse 10 is the same people as v. 9. In vs. 11-12 Peter counsels believing Jews to live holy lives among Gentiles.
1Peter 2:9,10 “Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God, which have not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”
“In time past” wasn’t Israel the people of God? “In time past” I believe scripture is pretty clear on the fact that Israel was the “only people of God!”
Who else could this be referring to but Gentiles?
Eric,
Peter wrote to Jews (1 Peter 1.1). Jews are the subject of this passage. Jews were a chosen race, a royal priesthood (Exodus 19.4-6). God declared them Lo-ami but promised restoration. See Hosea 1.9-10, 2.23 and Paul’s quotation of it in his discussion of Israel (Romans 9.25-26). Gentiles are not in view.
Peter 1.1 Would Peter address Jews as “Strangers?”
Ex 19.4-6 Yes the covenant was originally made with Israel and offered to Israel by Christ, later re-offered by his disciples. And as a nation they rejected the offer and it was given to a nation bearing the fruit thereof. (BELIEF) Matthew 21:43
Romans 9.25-26 & Hosea 1.9, 2.23 Both speak of the Remnant that will be restored to their promise of the earthly Kingdom. (This will happen after 2 days on the third day Hos 5:15-6:2) This new covenant Jer 31:31-33 remains yet future “after those days” with the house of Judah and with the house of Israel.) Paul a type of Israel rejected Christ, just as Israel did. Paul was blinded just as Israel has been. Paul regained his sight just as Israel will. Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, just as Israel will be yet future.
Eric,
Yes. They were strangers for they were Jews in foreign lands, just as he stated. The words παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς clearly mean this. The “nation” bearing fruit will be the future generation of Jews in the Tribulation who will repent and believe Jesus is the Messiah (Matthew 23.37-39).
Matthew 23:37-39 refers to Israel as a nation. The Israel clock so-to-speak will not start until the tribulation begins. So we have no contradiction on this.
However for the sake of argument lets just say your right in regards to Peter speaking to Jews in (1Peter 1.1). Jews today are strangers scattered throughout the world. So is he speaking to Jews in the tribulation only or is he speaking to Jews who have existed for the past 2000 years and presently exist?
Eric,
Peter wrote to the same Jews as James (James 1.1). The Jews of the Tribulation will read Peter and can apply it but that was not the intended audience at the time. God is not speaking to Israel today other than through Paul’s gospel.
With either James 1.1 or 1Peter 1.1 the same thing would be in view. Both could be looked upon as Jews scattered abroad. You say yes that the Jews in the tribulation could apply what is written in 1Peter. Ok so the question that remains …. Can Jews today apply what is written in 1Peter and James?
Jews today are in the same program as Gentiles. There is only Paul’s gospel for them. The kingdom program is currently suspended. After God removes the Church, the kingdom program (gospel of the kingdom) will be reinitiated and the prophetic clock will restart.
1Peter 1.4 “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in HEAVEN for you.
Is not The Kingdom of Heaven for Christians?
Eric,
Peter wrote to Jews. He had no ministry to Gentiles. Their inheritance was an earthly kingdom. It would come with the Messiah. When Peter wrote He was in heaven. They will not receive the kingdom until He returns. It is presently reserved in heaven in the person of the King. When He was on the earth, Jesus told the Jews the kingdom was in their midst (Luke 17.21, 10.9). The kingdom of God is wherever the King is.
Do you not see the contradiction in these statements?
Lets review your two statements in Regards to 1 Peter 1.1,4
1. Peter is specifically writing to Jews
2. The Jews inheritance is earthly
It is impossible for both of these statements to be true according to:
1.Peter 1:4 “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in HEAVEN for you.
If Peter is talking to Jews only then that is to say their inheritance is Heavenly, in to which you say it is not.
Eric,
I have to wonder if you want to understand or if are you being purposefully recalcitrant. The King is in heaven. He will return to earth. When He does He will establish His kingdom which the Jews await. Until then the kingdom is in heaven in the person of the King. Peter did not write their inheritance was heavenly. He wrote it was reserved in heaven. Totally different.
Are Christians the first fruits?
Eric,
The firstfruit was Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 15.20, 23) attended with those who were raised after His resurrection (Matthew 27.52-53).
Reflecting on 1Cor 15:23 where would you place Christians? Are Christians firstfruits or are we Christ’s at his coming?
Eric,
In the harvest analogy, we, the body of Christ, are the main harvest.
One more question, not meaning to drift but I’m trying to get down to the heart of our difference. Who do you see as the manchild in Rev 12.
Eric,
The woman is Israel and the manchild the Christ. The dragon is Satan.
Hi Don,
Please don’t take my response to you as argumentative but instead as a healthy dialog between us both. When I read anything you have written it makes my writing look like a grade 2 level so please excuse my poor attempt at expressing myself in written form.
You said “The events of Revelation 12 takes place at the mid-point of Tribulation” and from your comment I can only assume that you have not looked closely enough at Revelation 12 because we don’t believe in a “mid-tribulation” and yet Revelation twelve is about the rapture of the church. I know your position in regards to John writing to the Jews and not the church but I would like to put forth the following please.
Firstly I would like to point out that twice in revelation (chapters 1 & 4) John writes that these things have not yet happened but shortly will come to pass.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
My aim here is to prove that the Man-Child is not Jesus because John stated that these things are yet to occur and set in the future. If you don’t believe this to be the case then ask yourself this question: for what purpose and benefit would Jesus show the Apostle John a vision of an event that has already taken place some 20 or 30 years earlier?
Revelation 12
1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
The wonder in heaven that appeared definitely points to the (September 2017) star alignment. Regardless of Paul mentioning a sign or not does not mean God can’t or won’t show His plan in advance for those who are awake and searching. John might not have known what his vision meant but it is certainly there for us today, just as the Magi had the Star of Bethlehem 2000 years ago. We know the woman who’s clothed in the sun is Israel and the twelve stars above her head are her identifiers of the twelve tribes. Who is the child that is about to be born?
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Because Israel rejected the Messiah the gospel message went out to the gentiles and because of Israel’s rejection the church was then conceived. The same as Jesus (the head) was conceived through the workings of the Holy Spirit as was the church (the body) conceived through the workings of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
The scriptures have always referred to the last days or the tribulation period as a “woman in travail”.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 6 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
If we examine closely Isaiah 66, it describes the woman’s birth pains arriving after she gave birth and this is exactly what happens after the rapture of the church. Something else to note is in verse 7 where it talks about the man-child being born and then “her pain came” and in verse 8 it says “as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children”. So first a singular child is born and then her birth pain arrives followed by plural children coming forth.
Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children
What is written here in Isaiah regarding Israel giving birth to a man-child, travailing in pain and then again bringing forth more children is confirmed again in Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Don these passages just get deeper and deeper because not only is Isaiah 66 and Revelation 12 speaking of the man-child (zakar) but in Hebrew means “remember” or “marked”(set aside). The September heavenly sign occurs on the “Feast of Trumpets” or “a memorial of blowing of trumpets”. These things are not coincidental.
Revelation 3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
I won’t go into too much detail about verse 3 because this heavenly sign is yet to be fully revealed, but I would like to say this; there is a heavenly body that is deliberately being masked out by NASA and other authorities that is converging at the feet of the constellation Virgo. As the son of perdition will not be revealed until the church has been removed it too looks like this heavenly wonder that represents the dragon will not be revealed either until the church has been fully removed and safe.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The word caught up in Greek is “Harpazo” meaning to forcibly snatch or to seize and Jesus was never snatched or seized up to heaven as a child. Jesus wasn’t snatched up when he was older either but instead was handed over to the Romans and crucified. After the Messiah’s work on earth was complete He ascended up to heaven but was not snatched up. The child spoken of is the body of Christ (church) who will be raptured out of harm’s way allowing the Antichrist to rule and God to bring His judgment and wrath upon this world. The church will rule and reign with Jesus Christ on His throne for where the head is will the body also be.
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I have read where you have stated that John’s letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are not to the Christians churches of today but instead to Israel. My personal belief is that these letters are addressed to both Israel and the churches. The language appears to me to be a mixture of both Jewish and gentile.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
If somebody can be cast into great tribulation then obviously they are here on earth today.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The body of Christ are one with Him therefore will be ruling with Jesus on His throne.
I realize that this letter might be long winded but I hope you can understand the reasoning why I believe Revelation 12 is pointing to the rapture. As I have expressed earlier, there are plenty more other convincing proofs that show us that this September is more than likely the long awaited “blessed hope”.
Kind regards
David Dean.
David,
If you mix the Church with Israel you have confusion. All prophecy relates to Israel and the nations in contact with it. The Church is separate from both (1 Corinthians 10.32). The language in Revelation 2-3 is wholly Jewish. No Pauline language is present. All Church doctrine comes from Paul’s letters and Paul wrote the Church is not present during the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9; Romans 5.9-10). In Revelation 12 the woman is Israel. The passage, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne” clearly refers to Christ. He is the One prophesied to rule (Psalm 2.6, 8-9). Jesus spoke of this time (Revelation 12.6) as the abomination of desolation. It is clearly at the mid-point of the Tribulation for the text says God will take care of Israel for 3 1/2 years. Trying to fit astronomical signs to mean something for the Church’s only ends in confusion. The Church has nothing to do with the events of Revelation.
Hi Don and Vanessa,
I will indeed read what E.W Bullinger has to say on the subject but whatever he has written does not mean he is 100% correct on the subject of the man-child either.
I’m a little disappointed with your response Don because you failed to address any of the issues at hand. To mention that John only wrote to the Jews and there is no Pauline language present is not addressing the facts.
I stated the fact that it is impossible for the man-child to be representative of Christ because of the points listed in my comments above. Lastly I would like to say this: I’m not trying to fit any astronomical sign in anywhere but if it’s there in the heavens and fits perfectly within the confounds of scripture who am I to ignore it? God has told us on numerous accounts that the stars, sun and moon are for signs. Was he lying?
David,
The woman and child in Revelation 12 are clearly Israel and Christ. John is seeing a vision of the overall picture and future of Israel. He sees past and future. The woman giving birth is to show exactly who she is. The child is Christ–who else rules the world with a rod of iron and ascended into heaven? And from Revelation 1.6-7 we know the book is written to Jews for only Jews are a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19.6; 1 Peter 2.9). The point I made earlier about signs is that Paul gave the Church no teaching about looking for signs. The only sign he gave for the beginning of the end was the Rapture. It is a waste of time to be looking for signs when we’re not given any and cannot determine their significance. The only real “sign” we have that we are nearing the end was Israel’s return to the land.
Hello David,
Thank you for saying you will read Bullinger.
Here is how I see it.
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
the things which thou hast seen – ie. the risen Christ. Revelation 12.
the things which are – The seven Jewish churches .
the things which shall be hereafter – the events of the tribulation as covered in the remainder of the book.
The book of Revelation is a love letter written to the Jewish people for their survival during the 7 year tribulation. When they read Revelation 12 they will recognise the man child who came as their king. They will read about the 7 churches and recognise what they need to do to endure to the end and many will die as they will follow Balaam.
The book of Revelation is multi layered and its not for us to grasp as its written to the 7 Jewish churches. Recall one letter was sent to all 7. Not 7 different letters. When John wrote in a book he was writing to Jews. There’s no letter to the churches in Antioch. There’s no letter to the churches in Heliopolis. There’s no letter to the churches of Rome. Why not. Because these were Gentile churches. John never addressed Gentiles.
Lets add further. If you believe in once saved always saved then you are a dilemma with the 7 churches as many of them dont make it unless they change their ways. Paul never teaches us that. We don’t have to endure to the end to be saved. If we do then the cross is all in vain. Which we know that is not the case.
When Jesus was born there was a great sign in the sky. The Magi recongised it and followed it. When Christ died John saw heaven open up. Revelation 11 verse 19 heaven opens and immediately afterwards Revelation 12 Christ dies. Heaven needs to be opened up first to receive the risen Lord.
If God is addressing both the Jews and the Gentiles in the 7 churches then its no wonder there is so much confused when studying the Book of Revelation. No where did God mix the 2 churches together in history. Why now. And neither does God mix us up in the 1000 years. Jews have an earthly calling. Gentiles have a heavenly calling.
David, if you feel and think Revealtion 12 is the rapture how will you feel when its not.
Just yesterday I read with such sadness a letter from a 70 year old man.
copied and pasted.
Quote.
It is Sunday August 20 th @ 7:30 pm. here in Fla. I come to you with sincere apology for predicting the wrong timing of the rapture. Every thing I’d seen did not show up. wrong timing. For 21 years I’ve waited also, I’m 70 years old and have health problems too. I will never again predict a rapture timing. Every thing I seen was for real ,but wrong timing, my hopes were dashed too.
God Bless all of you.
End quote.
Just wishing to reach out to you to say, “Lets hope you are right but if you are not we are still here for you”. Take care.
Hello David,
When you have the time do yourself a favour and read the Pdf on the Book of Revelation and pay close attention to what is written about the 7 churches. Hope this may help you understand it better. Take care. https://levendwater.org/books/apocalypse.pdf
Dear Don,
I too would like to add my thanks to you for your site.
I have a fairly broad picture of scripture, I completed North Coast Bible Institute, and spend around 30 hours a week in study, mostly in preparation for teaching, but for myself as well. When I would join others in teaching, say in the jail for instance, we would be pretty much in sync, except I would hear things in the vein of “we just have to try harder” from my partners.
When I would hear this, it made me think of a video metaphor, where the video was slightly out of focus. I knew something was wrong, and I knew it was in the area of “we can’t and God can”. Even though I knew this, I had an uncomfortable feeling that I wasn’t seeing things quite clearly either. Perhaps clearer, but still a little out of focus.
My path to clarity started during a Revelation study I was leading. I was using J. Hampton Keathley III’s Studies in Revelation for the study material. But a few years back, I had read Bullinger’s “Witness of the Stars”, a fabulous book. I thought I would add in his “Apocalypse, or the Day of the Lord” to my Revelation study. I read the introduction, and for the very first time heard that the 7 Assemblies were Jewish. It’s like it crystallized in my brain, it seemed so clear and made sense. I couldn’t believe I had never heard this before, so I googled “7 churches are Jewish assemblies” or something like that to see if anyone else ever came up with this. Google came up with Matthew McGee’s site. I read his page on the 7 churches and immediately read all the rest of his stuff.
What happened was like looking through a lens which had suddenly become perfectly focused. Everything just fell into place and made sense like it never had before. Could this really be?
I then came across your site, and the clarity continued to focus clearer and clearer. I feel like I have been crawling along a cave with an intense desire to know what lies ahead, and the Lord has led me to a grand expansive cavern. It is quite the experience.
Funny think is now I have to read the whole Bible again cover to cover with this new perspective. It is new every day, and fresh.
Thanks for taking the time to write all you have, and be a part of my journey.
Stan Feldsine
Stan,
Thank you. Yes. When one understands God’s plan for Israel and God’s plan for the Church, the body of Christ, everything makes sense. Paul was God’s chosen instrument to reveal doctrine for the Church. The Gospels and letters of James, Peter, Jude, and John concern Israel. Keep these things straight and there is harmony. Enjoy! Grace and peace.
One of the things I am interested in is the role of the body of Christ during the Millennium. A couple of the passages relating to this seem to indicate that we will be judges:
1Co 6:2-3 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if by you the world is judged, are you unworthy of the most insignificant courts? (3) Do you not know that we will judge angels, not to mention ordinary matters?
2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
But this also seems to parallel some statements in the Revelation regarding the Jews.
Rev 2:26-7 And the one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him authority over the nations, and “he will shepherd them with an iron rod; he will break them in pieces like jars made of clay,”
Rev 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also have conquered and have sat down with my Father on his throne.
I am wondering if you have studied this topic. It seems that perhaps there is some overlap, or perhaps the role of the body is more of a judicial whereas the role of the bride (National Israel) is executive. I.E. Body = judges, Jews = rulers.
Stan,
It’s unclear what our role will be beyond the passages you’ve stated other than we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8). “Judge” generally means “rule” in the Scriptures. Whether we have a rulership role on earth is unclear. It may be confined to the heavens.
Don,
I have mulled over the 7 churches of Revelation. To me, clearly these are prophetic churches in the “Day of the Lord”. They are future. They are Kingdom (gospel) churches who seem to have fallen into the the same “bad habits” that Israel did in the OT.
I have wondered why are they in Turkey. Are these churches that have people who were persecuted for the gospel……so they scattered like ages ago?
If this is the case, then it seems a considerable amount of time must have gone by since the rapture happened. What is your opinion?
I also think of the 144,000. Where did the idea come from that they are “evangelists”. I can’t find that any where in Revelation. I see them more as a remnant that has been set aside and sealed. They show up only twice in scripture. In Rev 14 they are redeemed and called First Fruits standing with Jesus on mount Sion. If they are first fruits then aren’t they changed into immortals? Along with “the whole house of Israel” as prophesied by Ezekiel in Chapter 37. Isn’t this chapter about the dry bones a chapter on the resurrection of “the whole house” of Israel that are going into the Millennium kingdom……Along with King David? (Ezekiel 34:23)
I look forward to your thoughts.
Dawn,
Thoughtful questions. I do not know the answer to why the focus is upon these Jewish assemblies in Turkey. I’ve mulled over this but the Lord has not given me anything except a hint. I believe these were assemblies in John’s day but since Israel did not repent they are future. We are not told when these events will take place in relation to the Rapture. Considerable time could elapse (see my article, When Will the Lord Return?). The 144,000 are sealed, i.e., marked (God has His mark and Satan has his mark, 666) for protection. Nothing specific is stated about evangelism but this is reasonable (Matthew 24.14). God sealed the 144,000 to protect them from the Beast and are the firstfruits of believing Jews who will enter and constitute the kingdom.
Don’t you have to be resurrected to be a “first fruit”?
Dawn,
The word is ἀπαρχή. See how it is used.
Doctrine, you a 1000 times smarter than me and I have learned so much from reading on this site…..now wait for it…………..but. I have a problem with accepting that the book of Revelation was written before 70 a.d. There is so much external evidence that the book was written after 70. …Why would Paul be killed by Nero and John exiled? I know Nero was crazy and it could have happened. Of course there is the comment by Areneas (sp?) who mentions it was the time of Domitian. One thing that should be considered is the earth quake in Laodicea in 60. Tacitus says it was so bad it destroyed the city. There have been no coins found that date to that period. In Rev Laodicea is said to be rich . It probably took a generation to rebuild.
Joe,
The evidence Revelation was written after 70 A.D. is highly problematic. Nero died in 68 A.D. Paul did not live to see the destruction of Jerusalem. The comments by J.A.T. Robinson (and others) that John made no mention of the Temple or Jerusalem being destroyed seem logical and sound. Eusebius wrote Paul was executed in Nero’s reign and Paul anticipated his soon death in 2 Timothy. The Scripture does not state John was exiled to Patmos (Revelation 1.9). I have given reasons for an early dating Revelation in the article and think they fit the overall evidence better than a late date. It makes as much (or more) sense for Revelation to have been written before Laodicea was destroyed than long afterwards. Doesn’t it make sense they would have been rich(er) before having to rebuild than afterwards?
But aren’t they future? John was in spirit in the Lords Day…..aka Day of the Lord. So john saw these churches active during the tribulation.
Dawn,
They are future. But John wrote to existing assemblies. He thought the Lord would come in his lifetime. Peter expected the Tribulation to come soon–see Acts 2–this is why he quoted Joel 2.
hey,
I was wondering what is your take on the gift of tongues. I did look at the list, I dont know if I missed it, do you have an article? if not could you please tell me how you understand it and how important it is in the church.
thank you
Tanya,
Please see the article, Sign Gifts: Valid Today?
Don, I was wondering if you can shed some light as to whom the “angel” from the east is, and who/what are the four “angels” in Rev. 7:2-3?
Jacob,
God has angels overseeing believers, human governments, nations, etc. to effect God’s plan. He is the Lord of Hosts, CinC of the armies of heaven. These “generals” have tasks and responsibilities related to God’s judgment during the 7 years. Other than that, the Scriptures are silent.
Hi Don,
I was wondering, if the Book of Revelations are future events how would you categorize Chapter 12?
Thanks,
Jacob
Jacob,
Revelation 12 looks backward to Israel’s beginning, to Christ’s birth, and forward to God’s preservation of the nation at the mid-point of the 7 years. It is at this time that Satan will be cast from heaven. Revelation 12.5 is Psalm 110.1.
Hi doctrine.
What is your take on the ‘everlasting gospel in Revelation 14:6-7? Do people get saved under this gospel?
Bobbi,
We know that in our present age, the gospel of the grace of God, is the only gospel (Galatians 1.7-9). We know that John, Jesus, and the Twelve proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom and that this gospel will again be in place and proclaimed at the time the Lord returns (Matthew 24.14). Therefore, the “everlasting gospel” is best seen to be a general declaration of the good news God had in mind from eternity, which He first revealed to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3.15. Angels are greatly aware of the warfare between God and Satan and are engaged in executing God’s plans. The statement of the angel in Revelation 14.7, “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters” gives us some context for the “everlasting gospel.”
I am reading the commentary on Revelations by Bullinger. It is good although his theology on when the church began in the grace age is different. Is interesting however. Is really interesting even the name of the book The Appocolypse is revealing as to who it is written to. Always wondered what the unveiling was for the church as we know Him (Jesus) already. What an intriguing book!
Thank you for always answering and for all the fun extra tidbits and reading. Really love this site.
Bobbi,
Bullinger’s Apocalypse is the best commentary in existence on Revelation. It is the gold standard. Bullinger thought the Church did not begin until Paul’s prison epistles. He was wrong but he was a tremendous Christian and labored for Christ as few have. Tragically, his name is too often used in an ad hominem manner to attack anyone who does not believe the Church began in Acts 2.
Good Morning Bobbi, Through your postings I decided to get a copy of the Bullingers Book only to discover I had it in my library. What a joy. I have begun to read it but his style of writing makes it hard for me. One has to read it slowly and take millions of notes. Vernon and I wished we had a study group where we are able to attend. Q and A,s are such fun when studying this type of book. His book keeps me up late. I have been so blessed by iy. Cannot put it down. As you have read it would you mind if I ask you questions or will this be an imposition. Knowing this is Dons site I don’t want to make this forum into a Q and A for my own selfish needs. Don I hope you wont mind either. Perhaps I need direction and of course your willingness to help us. Please advise Gentlemen.
I am so totally in awe . I am just blown away with the truth of it. This is the only commentary I’ve ever read that shows Gods glory . I have done many studies in this area, and I must say they have been so shallow in comparibility. Thank you forever for giving light to recommend the book. I am grateful.
I am seeing the Glory of Christ all over! Hallelujah!
Hi Don, I have to agree with you regarding the 7 churches. All are Jewish. No doubt about it. And I stand on this. I also stand on the fact that Babylon must be rebuilt and its not America. The gap between the rapture and the start of the end times has a massive gap and I have to agree with Bullinger on the 40 years though in some cases he says 30. But 40 resonates with the time of testing for the Jews. The 7 churches wont have enough time to be the 7 over a 3.5 year period. Not enough time so I see them over a big gap of time taking root. Question if I may. The rider on the white horse (1st seal) is that the A/C. Christ is also seen on a white horse and this has me confused. Bullingers writing makes it difficut for me to read and understand but the Holy Spirit is always directing me. All of what I ever read has to be put away and I have to start anew.
The Christians have gotten the book of Revelation so wrong by making Obama the A/C and the start of the tribulation next year with the rapture this year. Nobody is checking it out for themselves. They are in for a huge shock should we still find ourselves here in 2020. Thank you. Looking forward in hearing from you.
Vanessa,
Much of this is speculative. I think good reasons exist for thinking a gap exists, but it is important to recognize what the Scriptures actually reveal. I think there will be a gap because I do not think Satan knows when God will complete the Church. I think Satan has plans in every generation to bring about the Beast and that this is what Paul meant by the “secret of lawlessness is already at work” (2 Thessalonians 2.7). Satan is the great counterfeiter. Jesus lived about 30 years before He began His ministry. Satan could replicate this with his man. This would account for a “gap” between the Rapture and the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. We know 40 years is a time of testing. So if the time from the Rapture to the return of Christ were 40 years, it would fulfill this time. But again, this is speculation. I cannot prove it. The Antichrist is a counterfeiter, a deceiver, hence the white horse. He will claim to be the Messiah. Bullinger does write, like many of his 19th-century contemporaries, in a somewhat difficult style. One has to “attune” one’s mind to his style. But it is worth it. Grace and peace.
Could the “gap” period. Also be reflected in the 40 days after Jesus crucifixion that he was with the apostles? This is interesting.
Bobbi,
Well, that’s an interesting thought. Hmmmm.
Good morning Vanessa. I love to see your posts on here! The book was really good. I found myself investigating “chaisms” which is a link Don shared on Bullingers sentence structuring. If they were too hard for me I just read on. Am not sure about the gap part. When I see the evilness in the world I just can’t imagine it taking much longer, although the days of revelation are really awful.
Once I understood the Jewness of the book and saw it from that light it really made so much more sense, which I got right away in chapter 1! The beauty f the book from the standpoint of Gods faithfulness to His people no matter what, is astonishing. For He is full of Glory.
Also, the current events and the direction the world is heading, on a fast track to evil is astonishing too. Events surrounding Israel, possibly leading to prophecies coming to be fulfilled is lining up for something as well.
Who knows on a timeframe…Not I. :-)
I just really think Israel is the clock. I watch Israel everyday. I am waiting for Lord Jesus, and watching everyday!
Also I thought it was interesting that. Bullinger said Thyatira didn’t exist in the days John wrote Revelation. This I haven’t been able to verify yet, but would like to. I have old historian books but they are on kindle, and the indexes are the pits. I only have Josephus, and Eusebius in book form.
It surely makes more sense if the book is written for Jews. The language and symbolism can be found in the old testament everywhere. Also it appears Satan is a big copycat. What he sees God do, so he tries to do as he wants the position. Thus the AC, False prophet, etc…
Tis such a shame some Christians or brethren have misapplied the book, for I have done many studies on Revelation and this view is the only one so far that shows the Glory of God. Which was a revelation, in this study. An going to ‘re-read the book. If Don will repost the chaism link, that was fun too.
Blessings, grace and Peace to you Vanessa. Have a wonderful day. Can’t wait to meet you in Heaven!
Thank you Don. Waited all afternoon for your reply before I carried on with my reading and research. Most appreciated. I was under the impression that Bullinger said the rider on the white horse was Christ. Going back to see where I thought he wrote this.
Vanessa,
Here is the chaism links for sentence structures!
http://chiasmusxchange.com/ and
http://www.bible-discernments.com/joshua/whatisachiasm_two.html
Very interesting.
Good Morning Bobbi, Wow thank you so much for those links. I had no understanding of chiasmus and could not figure out why Bullinger kept doing the A B C D thingy. Lol. I am one of those people who dont just read and then put down a book. I ask a zillion questions, often to God. I even said I wished Bullinger were alive in order for me to have a long discussion on the things of the Word. I need structure when I read in order to compartmentalise what I am reading. Hubby often catches me starring into the heavens and he says “Ok did you have an Eureka moment now, share please.” Silly but thats how we are. I am truelly grateful for your replies. Finding Dons site is like finding a treasure trove. All these lovely goodies to read. Bullinger sees us as the bride which I dont agree with but it does not change the fact that he was years ahead of his time and truelly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Take care.
Don,
It is strange about these 7 churches. One question is why are they all in Turkey? Especially if they are referenced to the future time coming, which I lean to this right now, mostly because for Thyatira there is little known if anything about the church there in the 1st century. Am investigating this. If you have any links for this info that is reliable, that would be great.:-)
Thyatira is known for like labor unions, and has 2 different pagan statues the locals must have worshipped. I perceive we are missing something here, but can’t figure it out yet.
It may be I’m wondering that it’s in Turkey because that’s where the AC will come from, and the stage of events in those days??
Bobbi,
All interesting questions for which there are no answers. To a future generation the things will become clear.
Vanessa, those a,b,c, things were hard! Even after the chaism article as he uses several different structures. Don had posted those links and man was I appreciative. However the complicated structures are still hard for me. Don’t you love those “Eureka” moments!
My email ill send to Don if you’d like it so we can share studies so we don’t bother anyone on this site. Tis truly a pleasure to visit with you.
Have a wonderful day! Blessings and Peace to you.
Hi doctrine.
One thing about Revelation I wonder about, is the end of the Millenium.
So, the Apostles sit over the 12 tribes, and the Martyrs over the nation’s during this period. Is this correct ?
So if that being the case, the fact remains the devil once again is set loose. By the time of the end are (the good guys) overcome and therefore God ends it with fire from Heaven?
I hate think of the good guys as being overcome.
What do you think about this?
Bobbi,
Yes. It is hard to imagine the world in perfect environment, no war, disease, extremely long life, no crime, righteous government being deceived into rebelling against God. But it will be. Satan will promote the LIE, that man can become like gods. He will sell the human race the idea that no matter how good it is, it could be better, that God has been holding something back. This is how he deceived Eve. It will be God’s final demonstration that man without God is no good. The good guys won’t be overcome. God will make short work of this rebellion and incarcerate Satan in the Lake of Fire forever.
I look around and see the Godless pushing their human good. I see it especially in politics. They are called Progressives. Humanist, secularists all claiming to want a better world based on the works of man himself. A borderless world, a one world government where we can all live together without prejudice, greed and crime. It’s John Lennon singing “Imagine”. Satan is pushing his agenda to the unbelieving elite that the Kingdom is in OUR hands.
….But there’s the little question in the back of my brain that tells me Satan is not stupid. Surely he’s read Revelation. surely he knows he’s not God. surely he knows he’s going to lose. What’s in all of this pain and misery for him? why isn’t Satan pleading for a reduced sentence?
Joe,
I do not think Satan can see Revelation or many other prophecies. God has kept them hidden–encrypted as it were. An example of this with humans is Luke 18.31-34. Thus, we have information Satan does not. Satan does not know his end. He is convinced he will win and defeat God. His character is so corrupt and twisted he cannot imagine defeat or admit he is wrong.
Joe thank you for that question which has been one of mine so many years. I had assumed he knew what was coming but was too proud to recognise it but Dons reply hits the nail on the head for me. Thanks Don. Can you imagine how confused Satan was when Jesus walked this earth. Man oh man he must have been freaking out. Smiles. Now I sound like my son.
Doctrine,
You may be on to something. I Peter 1: 10-12 and Eph. 3: 10-11 suggest Angels may be on a different plane and learn from watching us. I think we’ll be surprised when it’s revealed to us just how all these things fit together. Thank you for patience and the time you spend with us.
Joe,
Satan’s greatest shock was Christ’s resurrection. He thought he had won the war with Christ’s crucifixion. Satan had no idea that killing Him was his strategic defeat.
Good morning Don,
Knowing the book is Jewish, how is it that the church of Philladelphia is promised to be kept from the hour of testing that is to come?
This could be seen as a rapture event. And They have a crown to keep a hold of.
Could there be another view with the seven churches? Lol, am stuck on the 7 churches.
Bobbi,
I do not think it is possible to understand most of the particulars regarding these assemblies. When the time comes, they will be understood. But for now, the meaning is veiled.
Don,
Oh! Is he speaking of the remnant!? Man… I don’t know why that escaped me. Ok am writing Vanessa from here on, on the subject. Sorry.?
I am shocked that mostly the determining factor for dating Revelation from a lot of commentators was from Irenaeus as per your article. After further investigation it appears it was written by memory of a teaching he received from Polycarp some 30-40 years before. Which makes it here-say and from an old memory as well. So I am understanding some of his work may not be historically accurate as there are other inaccuracies noted as well.
Good to know. As I referred to Him earlier I wanted to comment on this to clarify new information.
Bobbi,
A lot of tradition is simply error and false teaching. We must stay strictly with the Scriptures to ensure sound doctrine. Paul wrote he completed the Scriptures (Colossians 1.25 DARBY) and Paul died about 68 A.D. For me, that settles it.
doctrine,
Yep. Got it! Sometimes I think I should have a better grip on church history and such but frankly there was a lot of error back then. So mostly the important dates just help identify the times e.g…. like rulers of the day and such. I will stay away from the rest.
Thank you .
Good Morning Don and all fellow believers. Don I had thought we have a heavenly calling and that we dont judge Israel and the world till I read these verse. It threw me. may I ask if you can explain them to me please.
Revelation 20:6, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
Who is the above referring to.???
Revelation 20:4, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:..” Who are these.????
1 Corinthians 6:2-3, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”
Who are the above.????
Vanessa,
Revelation 20.4,6 refers to Tribulation believers and OT believers who enter the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 6 refers to members of the body of Christ. We have no specifics as to what these responsibilities except they go on for eternity.
Thank you Don, and yes after I sent you those questions I found the answers which confire with yours. I found an amazing article about the 1000 years and it made everything clear. Thank you again.
Doctrine,
Do you see the “Body ” in Revelation 12:5? The verb here is looking like the “rapture”. It does not describe Jesus Christ ascension.
In Acts 1:And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
“Taken up”
Pronunciation: ep-ī’-rō
Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): From ἐπί (G1909) and αἴρω (G142)
Outline of Biblical Usage:
to lift up, raise up, raise on high
metaph. to be lifted up with pride, to exalt one’s self
KJV Translation Count: 19x
The KJV translates Strongs G1869 in the following manner: lift up (15x), exalt (one’s) self (2x), take up (1x), hoisted up (1x).
Strong’s Definitions: ἐπαίρω epaírō, ep-ahee’-ro; from G1909 and G142; to raise up (literally or figuratively):—exalt self, poise (lift, take) up.
Rev. 12:5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
“Caught up”
Transliteration: harpazō
Pronunciation: här-pä’-zō
Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): From a derivative of αἱρέω (G138)
Outline of Biblical Usage:
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
to snatch out or away
KJV Translation Count: 13x
The KJV translates Strongs G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).
Strong’s Definitions: ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad’-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Bobbi,
No. The Church is not in Revelation. This passage is about Israel and Christ’s resurrection.
Don,
Is there a scripture that says Christ Jesus was snatched up at the resurrection? Could this not be explaining to the future people what has happened to those that have disappeared and then what’s coming for the remnant?
Also who are these people in Rev. 12:17?
Bobbi,
The Rapture has been long forgotten by this point. The woman is Israel, the dragon is Satan, and the people in Revelation 12.17 are Jews.
Hi Bro Don, when Jesus tells Sardis that their church has a name that lives but they are dead, is HE referring to the church building first and then individuals, or is it showing the hypocricy , warning and urging of those church members of not to come short of overcoming, for if they were to die that instant they would be forever damned?
George,
Jesus is speaking to a group of Jews in Sardis. He is referring to the people, not the building. The challenge is to be faithful to Him and not worship the Beast. That is what overcoming is about in all these addresses.
Hi doctrine:)
What do you think of metonymy’s… a figure of speech.
Am reading up on “New Jerusalem”.
Do you think New Jerusalem is a metonymy ? Am interested in your thoughts.
Thank you.
Bobbi,
No, I don’t think the New Jerusalem is a metonymy. It is the heavenly Jerusalem, the greater reality. The Tabernacle and Temple were earthly representations of the throne complex of God, which was the true, greater reality. Earthly Jerusalem is just a shadow reality of the greater. It is like Plato’s cave.
Who are those around the throne in Rev. 4:4?
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Joe,
Can’t be dogmatic but think they are godly Israelites, sons of Aaron who are serving as priests to God. Israel’s priesthood was divided into a rotation of 24 priests. See 1 Chronicles 24.
I was wondering maybe part of the Divine Counsel? Psalms 82 and others??
Joe,
I don’t think so. I think these are men, not angelic beings.
I am really lost and confused. If Revelation is only for the Jews, where does that leave us Christians? Are we not all Gods children?
MiMi,
Revelation is FOR us but not TO us. The Church is not present during the dark days described in Revelation. The Church is in heaven with Christ. See my articles, The Day of Christ, The Rapture. Revelation describes God’s judgment of Israel and the nations and when Christ has defeated His enemies, He will return and establish His kingdom on earth. At that time, God will fulfill all His covenants to Israel.
OMG!!! Thank you for your quick response. Can I ask you your opinion on something totally off topic? If you think it is inappropriate for this thread you can delete it…Who are the Jews? I keep hearing people say that black people are Gods chosen people. I personally don’t believe race in regards to skin color belongs in Christianity? I believe most of this belief stems from the slave trade, etc and that is used to try to fulfill the prophesy in Deuteronomy…However, I believe that prophesy was fulfilled in 70 a.d. and has nothing to do with the slave trade!!! Please, please, help me debunk this myth. This is also very confusing. What do you think of the Hebrew Israelites saying blacks are the chosen people? Please delete this comment and email me personally if you think this is inappropriate for this thread. Thank You! Please shed light on this for me!!! This Hebrew Israelite belief is ruining my marriage.
MiMi,
Israel was the name God gave Jacob at Peniel (Genesis 32.8). From Jacob came the 12 tribes of Israel. The term “Jew” originally applied only to the tribe of Judah but by the time of the Babylonian captivity applied to all the tribes of Israel—the whole nation. The terms Israel, Jews, Hebrews are synonyms: they are the same people. The Jews are the “chosen people” because God chose Abraham to found a new race, the Jews, through whom He would bless the world. This was the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12.1-3). From that point forward, all divine blessing to the human race would come through the Jews. The epitome of this blessing was Jesus the Christ. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and came to be the King of the Jews, all Israel. Most prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. None of God’s covenants have reached fulfillment. Jesus still has to return and set up His kingdom. He has not yet put all His enemies under His foot (Psalm 110.1). Those who teach prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. are false teachers. They do not know their Bibles. Avoid them.
So why are certain people convinced that black people are the chosen people? I just want to know the truth in regards to this based on sound biblical doctrine. Please help me understand. How can one race produce different races? Which is what’s taught in Christiandom based on what’s found in Genesis, I believe.
Lost and confused,
I have never heard that black people are the chosen people. Who says this? The “races” begin in Genesis with the sons of Noah: Ham, Seth, Japheth. But when God called Abraham, He divided the world into Jews and Gentiles. The Jews became God’s chosen people because the Gentiles had rejected God—the Flood and Tower of Babel. God then decided to reveal Himself through a particular people, the Jews. They received God’s Word and covenant promises. Their destiny was to be the source of God’s blessings to the rest of the world (Gentiles).
“Their destiny was to be the source of God’s blessings to the rest of the world (Gentiles)”
Not the destiny. Maybe up until they rejected the Messiah. But after, they said “his blood be on us and our children” and for 2,000 years since the foot-of-the-cross, the Jews have attacked Christ’s followers directly via revolutionary chaos. Today, they are murdering people and innocent children in Gaza. They (even rabbis) allege today in politics that abortion is a Jewish moral value and there are rabbis today promoting occultism and satanic anti-biblical practices via the (anti-Christ) Talmud and the Kabbalah. Jews are not biblical people today.
After the Jews rejected God Jesus, they are NOT a source of blessing in the world, but one of attacks and ills towards Christ’s believers, working towards diminishment of the belief of Christian believers.
Earlier you mentioned that Jews who refuse to believe in God Jesus, will go to Hell. Their only chance is during the Last Judgement, they will be taken before Christ and judged on their actions in their prior life. Can Jews repent at that point and be saved? Or do they have no say, and are judged on their past conduct?
For example, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a Jew who fought against Christian principles her whole life. She fought against abortion. She was a conscious unbeliever. She is therefore in Hell. Will she get the chance to change her Jewish thinking at the Last Judgement and accept Christ’s ways?
DJ,
Once a person physically dies all hope of salvation ends. The Abrahamic covenant is still in effect (Genesis 12.1-3). How are people blessed today. By Christ, a Jew, by Paul a Jew. In the Tribulation, the 144,000 and the two witnesses will be the primary means of bringing salvation. In the kingdom, see Zechariah 8.20-23. Jews will fulfill their destiny as the source of blessing to Gentiles.
So, if there are only 15 million Jews alive today, only a % remnant will be saved? That’s not very many.
“ Once a person physically dies all hope of salvation ends. “
So, only the tiniest fraction of Jews that have ever live get salvation? Is this right?
DJ,
Few find salvation, Jew or Gentile (Matthew 7.13-14).
Your article about the book of Revelation being primarily for the Jews is wonderful and answers many questions I’ve had about it. I look forward to reading more of your work. I have heard that the antichrist may come from Turkey. You mentioned that the congregations referred to in Revelation are in Turkey, and that would fit in, wouldn’t it? Do you have any thoughts on that? Thank you for your great work and God bless you.
Pam,
Thank you. Daniel 9.26 reads, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” The “prince,” the Antichrist, who will come is from the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, the Romans. So the Antichrist will come out of the revived Roman Empire. This empire will consist of 10 states or kingdoms (Daniel, 7.7, 20, 24). What these are is unknown. Some think it will be the original 10 countries that composed the European Union. I do not know. Rome’s empire went from England to the Tigris river and Northern Africa. The Scriptures simply do not give us enough information on this subject to be dogmatic.
It Is Written
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Revelation 3:10
I thank God for you and the grace you have received.can
you please explain the scripture in light of the fact that it does not refer to the Church
Denise,
The Lord uses the verb τηρέω in two different ways: Because you have observed the word of my patience, I will also guard you from the hour of temptation. The word will somehow protect these believers during the Tribulation. See https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5083&t=KJV.
Don do you think that Daniel 11:37 tells us that the Anti-Christ will be a Jew?
Robert,
That’s the way I read it.
Don, I just met a pastor online who is lives in an island country near the middle east. He is presently teaching his congregation on Revelation. Unfortunately, like a lot of pastors, he teaches much error. For example, he believes that chapters two and three was written in the present, then from chapter four, things are future based. He wrote that Polycarp led one of the 7 ‘churches.’ I’m sharing some of what you have said on here. He admits it’s an interesting perspective that he’s never heard before.
Craig,
All one has to do is look at the language. It’s all Jewish and the Lord speaks of overcoming. The subject of Revelation is the Day of the Lord or as John wrote, the Lord’s day. What “overcoming” means is not worshipping the Beast and believing Jesus is the Christ.
Don,
Chapt 22 follows a passage about the New Jerusalem (chapter 21). Beginning in chapter 22 is a discussion re: the Throne of God and the Lamb. Beginning in verse 6 of Chapter 22 an angel (Jesus?)begins to speak to John about the soon return .
My 2 questions:
1. Beginning in verse 14 is a passage about those who can enter the gates. Verse 15 says ‘dogs’ are ‘without’ the gates of the city…………….Who are the dogs? Where is this taking place?
2. If this is Heaven and heaven is timeless why are MONTHS mentioned in verse 2 of chapter 22? Is TIME passing?
Joe,
1. At verse 6 we move outside of the New Jerusalem back to the prophecy. So the “dogs,” (i.e., κύων, the word from which we get “cynic”) are those in the prophecy, those who oppose Christ and worship the Beast during the Tribulation.
2. I don’t know how time is being accounted in the New Jerusalem. It is on the earth and there may be a time sphere within eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth just as it is today.
Don, I believe you wrote somewhere (I cannot find it it, so please correct me if I’m mistaken) that when the faithful Jews in the tribulation all say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,” that Jesus will return. I cannot find this in Revelations. Where do we get this from?
Craig,
See Matthew 23.37-39.
Don, what’s the best way to respond to a Catholic who says that the millennium symbolizes the history of the Church and that Christ has already bound satan through his death on the Cross?
Craig,
This view is not only of Roman Catholics but of most of Reformed Theology. The brief answer is that one cannot identify the events in Revelation with history. There are as many interpretations as interpreters. No one agrees. The Millennium is a time of peace and righteousness. Is that the world today? The numbers in Revelation are specific. We have never seen the disasters in human history the book describes. As for Satan being bound, the binding occurs after human history—after the Tribulation, after God has judged humanity. His being bound now doesn’t fit. Not to mention, if Satan is now bound how can we tell the difference? Is the world better? Such a view would mean that Satan played a very small role in evil—a small time player. A detailed analysis would reveal hundreds of things that do not fit.
Thanks Don. That’s a great answer. I also wonder how the catholc church can believe satan is bound when some priests are called upon when someone is suspected of being demon possessed.
Don, can you explain Rev 12:17? Is the remnant Israel? Pulpit Commentary says: “The members of the Jewish Church were they to whom “the commandments of God” were specially revealed, and Christians are they who specially “hold the testimony of Jesus.”
Craig,
These are Jews who have believed the gospel of the kingdom during the Tribulation.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
From one end of the Heaven…???? (Heaven) Is this literal? figurative? Why not use the word ‘earth’? Is there something beyond earth?
Thank you….
.btw….I’ve sent copies of each of your two publications to my brothers. It’s too hard to type out answers to their questions. From now on I’ll just give them a title and page number.
Joe,
It is literal in the sense of meaning from the farthest reaches. The “four winds” are likely earthly. Thank you for your order. I hope the books will be a blessing to your brothers.
Don, I need to apologise to you for misreading your comment about Turkey. I mean to say that Turkey is in the realm of the former Roman empire as you stated, and the antichrist will come out of this realm. I’ll be more careful next time.
Brian,
All we’re told is that the Beast will come from the old Roman Empire. I suspect he will not be revealed until long after God has removed His Church.
Don, how do I respond to someone who believes that there will be 3 raptures- pre, mid and post?
Craig,
The way we prove everything: from the Scriptures. What evidence is there for 3 raptures? The Rapture is an event unique to the Church, the body of Christ. When it occurs, all members of the Church, whether dead or alive, participate (1 Thessalonians 4.13-18). If ALL members of the Church are raptured and the Rapture is only for the Church how can there be another rapture? A is not non-A.
Don, Les teaches that the 144000 Jewish men will be commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom. I don’t see the scriptures actually saying that. Is this just an assumption? The bible does say the 2 witnesses will preach and an angel will present the everlasting gospel.
Craig,
The Scriptures do not explicitly state what these 144,000 will do. We know they are Jews and that they will be sealed. It is a logical conclusion that they will preach the gospel of the kingdom which the Lord said would be proclaimed before His return (Matthew 24.14) and that their ministry will be in agreement with Israel’s role in blessing Gentiles according to the Abrahamic Covenant. Their sealing must include some supernatural protection from the Antichrist and those who take the mark of the Beast and they probably will be able to travel as Philip did after ministering to the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8.40).
Don, did Paul expect to be raptured in his lifetime?
Craig,
Yes, his use of “we” in 1 Thessalonians 4.15, 17 is an example.
Don, are the 7 churches in Rev synagogues are just Jewish assemblies?
Craig,
The terms can be synonymous (James 2.2, 5.14) and probably are considering Revelation 2.9, 3.9.
The 144,000 traveling as fast as Philip makes a lot of sense. If they are the body to preach the kingdom gospel it would make sense they could travel far and fast. they will be needing to preach the gospel during a time when God is pour out wrath through the plagues.
Don, will there be signs before the rapture? Have you heard of Scott Clarke and his Sept 23rd prediction of the rapture?
Craig,
No signs precede the Rapture other than the general signs we see now. Have not heard of Scott Clarke.
One thing on this… Scott’s Clark posted on utube he has discovered “right division”…discovered Paul’s epistles within the last year. Praise the Lord! Our beloved sister Vanessa wrote me on this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9PiAfb9PNM
Though he has just discovered Paul’s Apostleship to the RISEN LORD, He may well change his views of old… His view has changed on some things so far.
Always the Bible holds all the truth :)
God Bless all brethren in the Lord!
Hi Craig, I have watched Scotty Clark for a good 6 years. Even before I came to the truth of Pauls Gospel I watched Scott as he always had a great way of making the rapture seem like it was going to happen tomorrow.
He got caught up with the Hebrews roots movement about the same time that I came to understanding Pauls Gospel.
I tried to reach out to him via my many messages on youtube but he did not have eyes to see. Prayer is much better. Smiles.
THEN just recently he revealed that he had found Pauls Gospel and so began his path on rightly dividing. Oh, what joy it gave me to see the transformation in this young man’s teachings.
The lord was so gracious to me as I was there to witness it all.
The blossoming of a new convert is very exciting.
The Sept 23rd prediction is now an embarrassment for him. He should take down his videos but the Lord will deal with him. He is a newbie and has much to learn. We continue in praying for him. Take care.
Hi Vanessa, I had never heard of Clarke until recently. I am always cautious of anyone who claims to have a new theory or new revelation. The Sept 23, Revelation 12 sign just never jived with me since Paul never said for us to watch eclipses, asteroid, comets, etc. Blood moons and astronomy is not how we know the rapture is nearly here. In Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus gives the Jews signs to watch for under the prophetic program for the Jew requires a sign. Glad to hear that Clarke is now right dividing.
Hello Craig, You are so right. We are not told to watch signs. And thank you for replying.
Regards
Vanessa
Don & Craig, I’ve noticed how many on the internet/you tube have been making late September rapture speculations/predictions since 2015. They’ll typically cite the feast of trumpets, blood moons, the 1948 rebirth of Israel, etc. People such as Robert Breaker have acquired lots of views because of this. But I wonder if they’ll risk being discredited by most sincere believers or seekers, like the boy who cried falsely cried wolf.
Brian,
This is one more example of the result of mixing the Church with Israel and Paul’s writings with prophecy. The feast of trumpets, blood moons, etc. have nothing to indicate the imminence of the Rapture.
Don, could you help me out? Is Rev.12 past or future? Trying to reconcile Lucifers fall from heaven with a third of the angels. Thanks
Danny,
It is future. Satan has access to heaven at the present time. Revelation 12 occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation. Michael will defeat Satan in heaven and he will be thrown to earth where he will indwell the Beast (his resurrection). He will then stop the daily sacrifice, enter the Temple, and declare that he is God. The Beast, the 7th king, will become the 8th king spoken of in Revelation 17. The Beast will become “the son of perdition” the title of one who is indweldt by Satan (e.g. Judas).
Don thanks so much for your site. I’m confused on what Peter’s audience believed. Since these are believing jews and we are under Paul’s gospel what are they believing? Terms of royal priesthood etc. are for jews I get all that. If there’s no jew or gentile in Christ now, what do we make of Peter’s letters. Are they believing the death burial and resurrection of Christ and looking to end times when Christ will return. Are they saved the same way as gentiles are? I know Peter says this in Acts. Will these believing jews be raptured out with the church? Also I guess we have to read Peter understanding that it’s to believing jews with Peter having end time thinking in mind. I hope my thoughts make sense.
Jasen,
Thank you. Peter’s audience were Jews who had believed the gospel of the kingdom. They were believing Israel, not part of the Church, the body of Christ. As such, they will be resurrected with the other Old Testament believers at the end of the Tribulation and enter the earthly kingdom. In that capacity they will be a royal priesthood and fulfill God’s destiny for believing Israel (Exodus 19.6).
Ok, thanks for your response. One more question. Were there jews that believed Paul’s gospel? He says there is no jew or gentile in Christ. So was there a group of jews that believed the gospel of grace as well?
Jasen,
Yes, Paul’s letters were written to a mixture of Jews and Gentiles who had believed his gospel.
I hear pastors at funerals quote Rev. 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Can you explain what is being said here? Are pastors simply misunderstanding rightly divided scripture?
Keith,
It’s well-intentioned but taken totally out of context. Far better to quote Paul: to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord.
Don, can you explain what is the marriage supper of the Lamb?
Craig,
It’s a hard question since we don’t have a lot of information. Revelation concerns Israel and the nations. The Church is wholly absent. The wife is Israel. It takes place after the fall of Babylon, the seat of deceit and false religion. It seems the significance is that redeemed Israel is united with her husband, Christ. Whether the Church will be present as a guises is not known since it is not mentioned.
Don. On the chart above, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ”, the Seven Churches (assemblies) are placed on the chart BEFORE the Rapture and WITH The Body of Christ BEFORE the Tribulation. WHY ?? They are supposed to be IN the Tribulation time, aren’t they?
John,
The chart I see has the 7 churches after the Rapture, in the Tribulation.
Don, there are more than a few end times prophecy teachers today who believe that the church at Thyatira in Revelation is the catholic church, since this religion will still exist during the tribulation. Thoughts?
Craig,
First, these are Jewish congregations, not Christian churches. The particular religious environment cannot be known to. It will make sense to those who are in the Tribulation. I do not think these speculations are profitable. The main point of the warnings are to “overcome,” not to take the mark of the Beast and worship him but to be faithful to Christ.
Don, will Jesus (and us) be riding a literal horse are is this symbolic?
Craig,
I think it is literal. Jesus rode a donkey in His first advent. The Jews expected their King to ride a stallion. Jesus will fulfill this expectation when He returns.
Don, during the tribulation will Jews believe that the antichrist is the Messiah or just a spiritual leader? Where does it say in the Bible that there will be a 1/3 remnant of Jews saved?
Craig,
Yes. Both Jews and Gentiles will believe he is God and worship him as such (2 Thessalonians 2.3-4; Revelation 13.4, 12). See Zechariah 13.8.
Don, who is the whore of Babylon?
Craig,
The city of Babylon is the earthly center of Satanic deception, the source of false religion. “Whoredom,” theologically, is the name for false religion, Satan’s alternate reality of truth.
Don, some prophecy people contend that the current city of Dubai has assumed that mantle of being the New Babylon. Your thoughts?
Brian,
I would say no. Think Babylon is historic Babylon.
Don, Is it the roman catholic church and all false religions/cults?
Craig,
The Roman Catholic Church is just a piece. The whole is everything that is not Christianity, and specifically, in our age, everything not in agreement with Paul’s revelations.
Does this mean Catholics and Lutherans, Presbyterians will not be raptured?
DJ,
All who believe Paul’s gospel will be raptured.
And that includes secularism (I.e. atheism, agnosticism, etc.,) as well. As Paul specifically addressed in Romans 1. Sadly, secularism has been rising particularly in western nations over the past century and a half since Darwin. As you, Don, also covered in your good article on evolution and elsewhere.
Don, is the wrath of God different from the tribulation?
Craig,
No, its the same, the Day of the Lord.
Don, what do you say to someone who believes the tribulation is 3.5 years and then when Christ returns it will be a resurrection -rapture in one day?
Craig,
There are two sets of 1260 days in Revelation. Revelation is all Tribulation ground. Daniel speaks of a week which begin with the Antichrist. These two figures agree. Paul stated as clearly as can be said that we are not appointed to wrath (the Tribulation) Romans 5.9; 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9. The Church is nowhere present in Revelation. So how can we be raptured when we are not there?
Don, Les Feldick said the the tribulation isn’t the wrath of God until the 2nd half of the tribulation. Is this true?
Craig,
See Revelation 6. These are the seal judgments. The difficulty is determining when the seal, trumpet, bowl judgments occur and whose wrath is in view—Satan or God?
Don, since this generation will not pass away refers to a generation in the future, how is it the apostles thought the tribulation would happen in their lifetime?
Craig,
The apostles thought the tribulation would occur in their lifetime because they thought Israel would repent after His resurrection. Had the nation repented, the tribulation would have taken place in their lifetime.
Don, Is Rev 12:11 talking about the Jewish remnant? Does this include Gentiles who get saved in the tribulation? I heard someone say this refers to the elect? Who’s the elect in Rev.
Craig,
Both Jews and Gentiles. In Revelation, we find Jews and Gentiles, but not the Church. The elect in Revelation are all those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and who reject the Beast.
Don
In reference to Matt 19:28
How will it be determined after centuries of intermarriage just who identifies with what tribe or is it general judgment like the pattern of Moses’ time?
Thanks
Donc
Donc,
God has excellent DNA capabilities.
Your article is effective and easy to understand the book of revelation but can I please know more about the concept of God in the book of Revelation?
Anita,
The same God as today but the emphasis will again be upon His identity expressed in the gospel of the kingdom. The challenge during this time will be to worship Satan and the Beast. The focus of the gospel of the kingdom was who Christ was. For salvation, one must believe Jesus is the Christ, not the Beast.
Don, I was asked this question: “Did you guys know there’s actually 14 tribes of Israel? Revelation 7 got it wrong… where’s Dan and Ephraim?” How do I respond?
Craig,
Every listing of the 12 tribes is different.
Don, can you elaborate?
Craig,
See the chart I created: https://doctrine.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/tribesofisrael.jpg. The identity of the “12 Tribes” is somewhat flexible depending on the circumstance.
Don, how are we to respond to someone who says that Christians will go through the tribulation, but not the wrath? This seems to be a common belief among denominational christians.
Craig,
How can you have the Tribulation without wrath?
Don, can you explain Hosea 13:7,8? Does it have anything to do with Rev 13:2?
Craig,
Hosea 13.7-8 culminates in God’s judgment during the Tribulation. Revelation 13.2 concerns the power of the Beast, who will incorporate the characteristics of previous empires in his rule. See Daniel 7.
Don, I was a member of a FB Christian discussion group. We were talking about Rev, the 7 churches, etc. I shared what I have learned on here and how Rev is mostly about Israel (and the gentile nations) and that the 7 churches are Jewish assemblies. The administrator joined the conversation and said that he was led by the Spirit to say something to me and then called me a false teacher. He said he didn’t mind my commenting, but said he won’t just stand by and let me mislead others. I then went on to explain why and how these are Jewish assemblies and how there is no church language, etc. The next thing I knew I was banned from the group without any notice to me.
Just wanted to share how deceived many “christians” are. Calling us right dividers: false teachers and claiming the Holy Spirit revealed that to them. Sad how true believers are so few today.
Craig,
When someone cannot provide evidence to support his view and resorts to name-calling, it reveals his position is weak. The book Revelation concerns Israel and Gentiles (cf. Romans 2.5-10). It never mentions the Church, the body of Christ, because Christ has removed the Church. The language to the seven Jewish assemblies is endurance to the end (cf. Matthew 24.13). If one endures, one will receive eternal life. This is wholly different from anything Paul wrote to the body of Christ. We receive eternal life by believing the gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead. Paul commanded believers to avoid those who reject his doctrine. Usually, they do it for us, for they are under Satan’s deception.
Don, is this correct?
“But OT scriptures taught after 70 AD and Daniel 9 26 that one week or 7 years remained after 70 AD. So that makes Daniels 70th week future after 70 AD. And that makes the rapture pretrib.”
Craig,
Daniel 9.25-26 taught that 69 weeks would expire and then the Messiah would be “cut off.” Then the prince, the Antichrist, would come and that would occur 1 week. That has not occurred so one week remains. I do not see how this relates to the pre-tribulation Rapture. There are several verses outside of Daniel that state the Rapture will occur before the final week.
Don, Do both the surviving Jewish remnant and the surviving Gentile believers in Christ go straight into the earthly kingdom with Christ at His 2md coming? What about those who believe, did not take the mark and were killed, are they trib saints, part of the Church or what?
Craig,
Yes, they go directly into the kingdom. Those killed in the Tribulation enter the kingdom; they are not part of the Church. The Church is complete and God has removed it at the Rapture.
Don, how do I respond to someone who says: ” New Jerusalem resides on the new earth. Heaven is our new earth and Jerusalem. No one is in heaven yet. Only one who get to be in heaven are the church and that’s only for a short time
Craig,
Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. God sees us as in heaven now (Ephesians 2.6).
Don, t I have a question regarding the 144,000. In Rev 14:1-5 John has a vision that this group is singing a song before the throne and before the living creatures and the elders. The 4 living creatures and 24 elders are in heaven, not on the earth.
If they go straight to the earthly kingdom, how are they singing in heaven at this point?
Craig,
We don’t know they go straight to the earthly kingdom. See Daniel 12.11-13.
Don, can you elaborate on the meaning of Dan. 12:11-13?
Craig,
Revelation indicates the Tribulation will be in two 3 1/2 years parts of 42 months or 1260 days. But in Daniel we find 1290 days, 30 days beyond the 1260 and then 45 more days after this. So there is a time gap during which God can regenerate the earth and other things such as the singing in Revelation 14.
Don, can you lead me to a good discussion re: the KJV-onlyism controversy? It’s hard to talk with these people w/o them getting mad and making snide remarks.
thanks
Joe,
No, I find their arguments irrational. They believe the English KJV text is superior to the Greek texts. They do not understand the manuscript evidence and seemingly do not wish to. The TR is not equal to the Majority Text. You can rationally believe the MT is a better text than the Critical Text. But to believe the KJV text, the English text, is superior to any Greek text is irrational.
Don, concerning Rev 18 and Babylon, I hear Christians saying that America’s destruction and the rapture will happen at the same time. the one that divides Jerusalem will be divided and Trump wants to split Israel. Any thoughts?
Craig,
This is all vain speculation. The Bible does not provide this level of detail.
Don, what is the everlasting gospel, is it the gospel of grace?
Craig,
The everlasting gospel in the context of Revelation 14.6 is the gospel of the kingdom, that Jesus is the Christ.
Don, do you see the current coronavirus and other epidemics as a precursor of worse plagues to come as stated in Revelation? The reason I ask is due the rising media hysteria. Imagine how off the charts it’ll get with the media and society during the tribulation. Could it be another satanic scheme of getting humanity ready for the greater coming chaos?
Brian,
The mainstream media is completely deceived by Satan and serves him by manipulating public opinion against truth, in particular, against the God of the Bible. After the Lord removes the Church, the restraint the Church provides against evil will no longer exist. The world will easily rush toward greater deceit and embrace the Beast.
Don, besides foolishly or ignorantly trying to insert the church into the book of Revelation, it’s also disturbing how many self-proclaimed prophecy ‘experts’ are busy trying to ascertain and proclaim the identity of the anti-christ. Barak Obama, Emmanuel Macron, Tayip Erdogan, Kiers Starmer, Sebastian Kurtz, etc., are all being promoted and fiercely debated over. Consequently, it seems that they’re also elevating, sensationalizing, and even glamorizing the anti-christ as some sort of hip and suave James Bond type villain. Sadly, most prophecy people just don’t really seem to grasp the greater picture. Why obsess over the minors when the far more wonderful truth of the pre-tribulation rapture, our heavenly celebration with Jesus, and absence of the church during the tribulation should be celebrated instead? The old saying about ‘majoring in the minors and minoring in the majors’ is sadly applicable to most of what I see as posing as prophecy teaching on the internet.
Brian,
It’s sensationalism and self-promotion. Verily, they have their reward.
Since the Antichrist will be accepted by Israel as the messiah, does that mean that he is Jewish?
Cigmd,
Most likely. See Daniel 11.36-37.
I think in 2024, the current thought is that the Globalist push continues, it is pushed by many Jews. The Globalists (Jews and secular gentile duped followers) want to abolish Jesus Christ and institute a “Father-only” global religion based on general principles.
This global Jewish-led anti-Christian religion (ZOG) is currently based out of WashDC, Davos, and Jerusalem.
Jews are ethnically cleansing the land of Zion, plan of building a 3rd temple (they have red heifers from TX), and subjecting all Gentiles to rule under Noahide Laws instead of the Gospel of Christ.
When this is all accomplished, the Jews believer their messiah will come. Of course, they hate God Jesus Christ so it will be the Satan Anti-Christ!!! These ZOG-Zionists really are hoping that their “millennium” will be supremacist rule over the gentiles, and they have only sadistic goals in mind, because their view of it is satanic hate supremacism where they settle scores against those who believed in Jesus for 2000+ years. They hate us, and want sadistic rule over us, which we can see them already implementing via globalism.
DJ,
Some Jews are part of the globalists but most globalists are Gentiles. They have no racial or national loyalty. Schumer called for Netanyahu’s removal because he is destroying the terrorists controlled by the globalists. World government and total control is their goal. Most of the governments in Europe, Canada, Australia are controlled by globalists and are allied with Biden, Clintons, Obama, etc. Most Jews do not understand who the globalists are and their plans (WHO, WEF, central banks, Green New Deal, 15 minute cities, etc.) just as most Gentiles do not understand. Heretofore, globalists have controlled the currency and communication. This is now accelerated with CBDC, massive censorship, and now control of the food and energy supply. People are beginning to awaken to these realities. All this is stage-setting, a preview of the Tribulation. Globalists will embrace the Beast and worship him as God.
In Chapter one there is a reference to Priests. Are members of the Body of Christ priests?
Also “The Lord’s Day” is used for the one and only time in the bible. Isn’t this really the “Day of the Lord”. “The first day of the week’ is usually use by John in his epistle.
Hi Don
I love your work and your site has been a tremendous blessing – so many thanks to you.
I strongly disagree with you on one point however.
You state ” their salvation was based upon the kingdom Gospel and in the future will be based upon the gospel of the kingdom (see Matthew 24.14) and specifically upon overcoming–rejecting the Antichrist and acceptance of Christ as the true God”
The glaring error here is that John specifically stated that he wrote his gospel that they might believe Jesus is the true Son of God.
Jesus cannot be both GOD (YHWH) and the Messianic Son of God. This makes the scriptures a complete nonsense. When you find the conviction to abandon your erroneous Trinitarianism you will be even more content than your are currently.
Try “They never told me this in Church” by Greg Deuble for a debunking of Trinitarianism that you will not be able to refute.
All the best to you
Nettie,
Jesus told the Jews in John 8, Before Abraham existed, I am. His reference was to Exodus 3.14. The Jews understood that Jesus was saying He was God. That is why they picked up stones against Him. When Jesus healed the lame man lowered from the roof, Jesus forgave his sins. The Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy for God alone could forgive sins. Jesus proved He was God by healing the man. God is one. But He manifests Himself in different roles: Father, Son, Spirit. If you’ve ever read the Count of Monte Cristo, you know the hero, Edmund Dantes, assumes the roles of the Count, Lord Wilmore, Abbe Busoni, Sinbad the Sailor, etc. Same person, different roles. We are in a drama and God is the chief actor and He plays different roles.
Thx Don,
This is clearly an enormous topic but also absolutely fundamental.
I will address your last point first.
You say “….He (God) manifests Himself in different roles: Father, Son, Spirit.” with the example of the Count of Monte Cristo. This example sounds closer to modalism than orthodox trinitarianism.
Theopedia states “Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons.” So it might be helpful to your readers to clarify your understanding here.
I am neither Modalist nor Trinitarian but Unitarian according to God’s command in Deut 6:4
“Behold Israel,
YHWH /The LORD elohiniu/your GOD.
YHWH/The LORD echad/ONE”
It is very problematic to argue that the self revelation of YHWH to Israel was somehow faulty. ( you can try if you like) but it is certain that no Israelite ever understood his God to be anything other than one solitary, personal individual.
Yes, we are in a real life drama but God the Father is the playwrite who plans, produces, directs and enacts His drama through (primarily) His begotten (not eternal) anointed Son.
I shall address your further points as time permits.
Thank you for allowing me the space and grace to contest this point on your website.
Nettie,
What I wrote is not Sabellianism. The Scriptures teach God is One and God is revealed as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, coequal and coexisting. Hundreds of verses show this. Jesus said He and His Father were One (John 10.30). To see Him was to see the Father (John 14.7, 9). The first chapter of Genesis introduces God as One and Plural. He declared, Let Us create mankind in Our image (Genesis 1.26-27). Moses wrote both Genesis and Deuteronomy. He understood this. No one should have a problem with this. It is as sound a doctrine as the existence of God. Further discussion is pointless.
So the Jews got it wrong?
Annie,
No, God is One. But Moses also wrote God was a plurality. The Jews understood God was one in His essential nature for He is spirit. They also knew He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, manifested Himself as the angel of the Lord, and wrestled Jacob, etc.
Don, who are the 24 elders on Rev 4, 5?
Why are so many churches teaching that these elders are representatives of the Church?
Craig,
The Levitical priesthood had 24 orders which rotated service in the Temple. See 1 Chronicles 24. The 24 elders are likely their heavenly antitype. They are probably angels.
Don, a friend of mine says that Jerusalem is Babylon. What do I say to her?
Craig,
The basis principle of interpretation is to take a Biblical statement literally unless there is evidence not to. What is the evidence that Babylon is Jerusalem? If 1 Peter 5.13 is the passage in question, the probability is that Babylon is Babylon for Josephus wrote that a large number of Jews still resided in Babylon.
Don, my friend uses Rev 18:24 where it says “in her was found the blood of prophets.” So he believes it has to be Jerusalem.
Craig,
See Revelation 17, especially verses 4-6. Babylon is the Satanic world system which first began at the Tower of Babel. Revelation 17 focuses on the religious system of deceit and chapter 18 on the financial. Again, it is literal Babylon but it controls the thinking of the the world. It is certainly not Jerusalem, the city of God. Babylon is the city of Satan.
Don, could Revelation 3:9 also be used to support that the Revelation churches are Jewish assemblies and not the raptured Pauline church? It says: “… which says they are Jews, and are not…”
Brian,
Yes. The language in these two chapters is so alien from anything Paul wrote one wonders how anyone could think these congregations could be the Church, the body of Christ.
Don, I want to get your take on this. Whenever a post tribulationist throws Matthew 24 at me, I respond with this: “Matthew 24 pertains to the Jews in Jerusalem and Judea during the Tribulation period, and not to the raptured Church. The raptured Church has no wrath appointed to it. (1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9) Should I stick with this response?
Brian,
It’s a good response. Matthew 24 only concerns Israel and the nations, under the gospel of the kingdom, not the Church. See also Romans 5.9.
Don, as you know there are many who are opposed to pre millennialism. They claim there is nothing in the Bible to support it. How do we address this?
Craig,
Those who make this claim have abandoned a literal reading of Scripture. There are thousands of passages in the OT about a literal kingdom on earth. What was left unrevealed was its length. All the numbers in Revelation are specific: 1260 days, 42 months, 144,000, 1,000 years. The last gives us the time period of the earthly kingdom, a time in which Satan will be imprisoned. Many passages declare Christ will return and set up this kingdom (Psalm 2, Zechariah, John’s letters, Peter’s letters, etc.). Paul tells us the Church will be removed before the Tribulation, before the kingdom (Romans 5.9; 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). So the problem with these folks is unbelief. They do not believe the text.
Craig – I find Daniel 2:35 (and the preceding verses in this chapter) helpful in this regard, in addition to the verses Don mentioned in his reply.
“… and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.”
This seems to clearly indicate that Christ returns to earth prior to setting up His earthly kingdom …
The image represents literal, physical, visible, and earthly kingdoms as I understand – so it makes sense that what follows is literal, physical, visible and earthly …
This particular verse makes is crystal clear for me, so wanted to share it …
Don, a friend of mine who is a believer says that America is mentioned in Rev 18:4,5 and Jeremiah 51. What do I tell her?
Craig,
Babylon is not America. The only nations mentioned in the Bible are those who had contact with Israel.
Don, when the 12 disciples of Jesus serve as judges over the 12 tribes of Israel in Matthew 19:28, Does Judas Iscariot included in the 12?
Uzziel,
Matthias replaced Judas (Acts 1.26).
Don, seems only the KJV it says that the mark of the beast will be IN the right hand or forehead as opposed to ON the hand or forehead. Does it mean either in or on? Does it make any difference in the original language?
Craig,
The text is ἐπί, “on.” If “in” the text would be ἐν or εἰς. These kinds of things destroy the KJV only view.
Don, you may have already answered this but will there be a tree of life on earth during the millennium? I’ve read that sickness will not be totally eradicated and people will eat of the leaves for health benefits. Is there more than one tree of life?
Craig,
It appears from Revelation there is more than one tree of life since it is on both sides of the river. Death is finally fully defeated. It produces fruits and leaves for healing. What this means is unclear.
Don, been hearing some Christians say that the Antichrist will pretend to come from another universe. Or that he could be an alien. Thoughts?
Craig,
Possible but doubtful. He will have natural charm and brilliance and people will regard him as superhuman when he is resuscitated from death.
Don, are the crowns mentioned in the Bible such as the crown of endurance, etc for Christians or Israel?
Craig,
What passage do you have in mind?
Don, do you think Rev 18:23 has anything to do with the vaccines and big pharmacies we have today?
Craig,
Could be. All happening today is a preview of an even worse time.
Don, concerning Rev 3:11 is Jesus speaking only to Jews here about not having their crown taking?
Craig,
Yes. The addresses Jesus gives in Revelation 2-3 all are to Jews.
Don,
I’m reading from an outside source that the general area in Asia minor that/where Paul was forbidden to go is the same area where the cities mentioned in the first 3 chapters of Revelation are located with the exception of Ephesus which is on the boundry of that area. Do you think there is any relevance?
Joe,
Paul was prevented from going to Bithynia which was in northern Asia Minor (Acts 16.7). This was not the area of the cities in Ephesians 2-3.
Don, could Revelation 18 happen at any moment, or is this after the rapture? I hear believers saying that with what is going on with Russia and China, Rev 18 could be very soon.
Craig,
This is false teaching. Everything in Revelation occurs after the Church is gone. Trying to interpret and interject current events with Revelation is a fools errand. Those who do so misread the Scriptures.
Rev 22:2 speaks of the leaves of the Tree of Life ‘healing the nations’. What does that mean? Is there sickness? Death? Where is the Church at this time? Who is being addressed? Members of the Church have glorified bodies so there should be no sickness, right?
Joe,
Unknown. We know little about the eternal state. Something we can ask the Lord when we see Him.
Would you comment on the timing of the battle of Armageddon versus the timing of the war of Gog and Magog, if you please? Which one happens at Christ’s second coming? and, thus, when does the other one happen? The details concerning them from various prophets get jumbled up in my head and I have a hard time sorting them out. Also, there doesn’t seem to be agreement on the subject from Bible teachers, as far as I can determine, just causing more confusion. I’d very much like to have proper understanding of when each occurs, if possible. Thank you.
Sheryl,
Armageddon occurs at the end of the Tribulation. Armageddon is a symbolic name for the assembly of armies for the battle of earth. As far as Gog and Magog, that battle occurs at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. What is unclear is to what Ezekiel 38-39 describes. I do not know. Major views: 1)Before tribulation, 2)Early part of Tribulation, 3)Armageddon, 4)End of 1,000 years.
I’d always been taught that Armageddon occurred at the end of the Tribulation and Gog and Magog occurred at the end of the millennium, as you stated. However, based on current events, perhaps you’re aware that some Bible prophecy teachers are speaking about the Gog and Magog war, as if they expect it to occur in the near future the manner in which the stage is being set. It was confusing me about how that interpretation could be accurate, seeing how it’s prophesied for more than 1,000 years away, as I understand it. It was causing me to question whether I rightly understood and I needed clarification.
There’s another passage that intrigues me and I’ll ask if you may please comment on how you understand it’s meaning…”do not harm the oil and the wine.” That’s a verse I’ve heard some preachers explain as saying that the rich will not suffer starvation as the rest of the world, I’m not so sure. I don’t think they are going to so easily escape the effects of wrath being poured out. It seems more reasonable that, as I read somewhere, the oil and wine will be used to help sustain the Jewish people who flee for their lives upon seeing the abomination of desolation, as directed by scripture. I’d be most interested in your understanding.
Sheryl,
The details of famine are unclear but this verse indicates basic goods suffer inflation while more expensive items do not—at least for a while. Despite the terrible judgments, many prosper and remain rich until the end. This is clear from the description of Revelation 18, the destruction of economic Babylon. God will provide for the Jews who flee even as He did in the desert with manna.
Yes sir, thank you for responding to my questions. I appreciate it as I try to rightly understand scripture. My original thought was that when the pale horseman of the apocalypse rode, famine would blanket the earth, but famine is just one of the elements causing death. It is reasonable that many of higher ranks must have to remain prosperous and with food to sustain them, for those armies who gather for the battle of Armageddon apparently come equipped with their physical strength. I’m just so thankful I won’t be on earth to experience the details play out, for the Rapture occurs beforehand. That’s the most important fact I’m confident of that Paul has made plain. So I will try to understand what follows as best I can, but not make it my focal point. When I see Jesus face to face, that’s all that will matter.
Don, back on April 1, you told Sheryl you were not sure about Gog/Magog–Ezekiel 37–
I ran across this. Does it make sense or help explain? thanks
“Generally speaking, Ezekiel’s prophecies are in chronological order. But that doesn’t mean everything from one chapter has to be accomplished before anything in the next chapter can happen. For example, Ezekiel 36 contains God’s promise to bring Israel back to the Land God gave them and then goes on to say He will cleanse them from all their impurities, give them a new heart, and put His Spirit in them. This last part is yet to come and will happen when they receive the New Covenant.
Likewise, Ezekiel 37 begins with the so-called dry bones prophecy that foretells the re-birth of Israel in the end times (Ezek. 37:1-14) the first 12 verses of which have been fulfilled. (Verses 13-14 will be fulfilled following Ezekiel 38-39). But then the Lord had Ezekiel go on to explain that the once divided Kingdom will be reunited (Ezek. 37:15-23) David will be their King again (Ezek. 37:24-25), and the Lord will put His sanctuary among them forever (Ezek. 37:26-28). This hasn’t happened yet either, so we consider Ezek. 37:15-28 to be a parenthetical view of Israel’s ultimate destiny.
Ezekiel 38-39 follows the nation’s rebirth (Ezekiel 36-37) but precedes the Millennium, which is described in Ezekiel 40-48.
This is something that happens in several sweeping Old Testament prophecies. For example in Isaiah 9:6-7 only the first half of the first sentence has been fulfilled. “Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given”. The rest awaits fulfillment in the 2nd Coming.”
Doctrine,
If the destruction of the temple/Jerusalem in 70AD was in prophesy how is it that this was not prophesy occurring in the Age of Grace? Thanks in advance.
Keith,
Jesus foretold the Temple and Jerusalem for God’s prophetic program. There was no hint that God would create the Church, the body of Christ. Jesus who had believed the gospel of the kingdom continued to live and operate under God’s prophetic program. They thought the Lord would return in their lifetime. The age of grace, the Church, was unrevealed and new until God’s revealed it to Paul. That started a new program that ran parallel with God’s prophetic program.
Don,
What is the significance (if any) of the fact that the 3 major books of prophesy were written outside the nation of Israel? Daniel, Ezikiel, and Revelation…
Also, Paul was called outside of Israel while the 12 were not…. significant?
Joe,
While these three books contain a great deal of prophecy, so do others: The five books of Moses, Psalms, the other prophets.
Don, the threat of a nuclear war between Russia and the U.S. appears to be escalating. Tucker Carlson did a good job of addressing the growing insanity last night. Our ‘leaders’ are deliberately provoking Putin with further Ukrainian aid and possible military escalation. The ‘regime change’ mantra has returned. I know that the United States or western hemisphere is not Biblically mentioned, but the eastern hemisphere and ancient Scythia and Magog is. A devastating nuclear war killing tens, if not hundreds of millions, would adversely affect Israel and the rest of the Middle East economically, militarily, politically, biologically (radioactive fallout, etc.) It would have massive global repercussions. Your thoughts?
Brian,
We’re heading for a scare event. The Biden administration and those controlling it want war—not a full-scale war but one to provide cover to remove all freedom and bring in CBDC. Game over.
Don, I am reading your book Understanding the Jewish Writings. Excellent book. Such an eye opener. I am in the last section on the book of Revelation. On page 214 you cover Revelation 7: 1-8. Verse 1 says that four angels stood on the four corners of the earth and stopped the wind from blowing on the whole earth. My wife and I were discussing that and wondered what effect that might have. If the wind is not blowing where I live, I think nothing of it and certainly don’t wonder what the wind is doing somewhere else. Someone living 200 miles away from me doesn’t think of it either. I don’t know and they don’t know. But when that time of Revelation 7 arrives how much more of the world’s electricity will be generated by wind power? When that happens, everyone will know and feel the effect. How will they explain that? The wind always blows somewhere.
Terry,
Thank you. Glad you are finding my book informative. Wind power will never be a major source of power. Probably the maximum is 5%. I am sure that if the wind stops worldwide it will be widely reported.
Don,
Revelation chapter 21 begins with the “new heavens and the new earth”. I always considered this as a reference to the beginning of eternity but if I look at Isahia 65 it also begins with basically the same language but, read in context, Isahia appears to be the beginning of the Millenium. What are your thoughts? Thanks
Joe,
Yes. It seems that Isaiah merged the kingdom with the future new heavens and new earth.
Don, how do I respond to a lady who says that the Church and OT saints are in Revelation and that Rev 4:1 is about the rapture?
Craig,
Where does she see the Church in Revelation?
Many are saying that Rev 4 is about the rapture. What is that chapter about?
Craig,
John is given a vision of heaven to see the twenty-four elders who are the antitype of Israel’s priesthood (1 Chronicles 24). They anticipate Christ’s victory that will soon be revealed. It is all Jewish. Nothing of the Church is here.
Don, you said the mark of the Beast will alter one’s genetic code. What makes you think that?
Craig,
Paul wrote in Hebrews 6 that those who fall away (reject the gospel of the kingdom and take the Beast’s mark) cannot be renewed to repentance. Repentance has always been possible so this is strange. The most reasonable explanation is they are altered to prevent this. This is why the Lord warned against blasphemy of the Spirit, that it cannot be forgiven. This too is strange, for God can forgive all human sin. Thus, one who takes the Beast’s mark is altered so he is no longer made in the image of God but is altered into being after the image of Satan. Strange and frightening times.
Don, I dont see anything about taking the Beast’s mark in Hebrews 6. Les makes no mention of it either. He simply says it’s about those Jews who believe in Jesus but want to go back under the law. Where do you get that Paul is even hinting at the Tribulation and the mark of the Beast?
Craig,
One must compare Scripture with Scripture—blasphemy of the Spirit, mark of the Beast, sin unto death, impossible to repent. Hebrews is a letter to Jews who had believed the gospel of the kingdom. They continued under the Mosaic Law. When Paul wrote Hebrews (in the 50s), all the apostles thought the Tribulation was just around the corner. They thought the Beast would soon appear. All this is Tribulation ground. Read Matthew 10 and 24. All this concerns the Tribulation.
Sir,
I cannot thank you enough for this wonderful lesson/explanation of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
As a life long Baptist until recently, I have never heard anything about Revelation that made sense. After discovering Doctrine.org I feel like I am set free of all the contradictions and confusing attempts at explaining the last book in my KJV.
Revelation, written by a Jewish apostle to Jews just makes perfect sense, and layers of confusion have just melted away. I can’t wait to read more on your wonderful website.
God Bless you sir and again, Thank You!
Larry,
Thank you. To avoid confusion and apparent contradictions, we must keep what Paul taught about the Church separate from God’s earlier revelation that concerned Israel and Gentiles (His covenant, prophetic program). God is not the author of confusion and everything fits together if we keep these two programs separate. The book of Revelation concerns The Day of the Lord, God’s wrath against the nations. We, as members of the Church, are outside that program and this is why God must remove us (Rapture) before it begins. As members of the Church, we are neither Jew nor Gentile. Paul tells us we have a new identity–Church. We see these three categories, Jew, Gentile, Church in 1 Corinthians 10.32. God bless you as He continuing to open your understanding of His marvelous grace.
Hi, Don!
I wanted your thoughts on my thoughts regarding the mark of the beast:
Based on Jesus’ VERY clear teaching in Matthew 25, the ethne (individual Gentiles) will be granted admission into the kingdom based on one and ONLY one criteria—-their blessing of the Jews, in this case, by providing them essential material provisions. It’s obvious the helpers have clothing, houses, food and water enough to share——either they were either major preppers or they are able to participate in daily, vital economic transactions—i.e. have the mark.
I share your belief that all of Revelation is a wholly Jewish book awaiting future fulfillment. Therefore, I have no problem taking the “any man” of Rev 14:9 as Jewish man, just as “all the men” in Deu 4:3. My theory seems to be confirmed in the positive by Rev 20:4 where souls who had not worshipped the beast, nor received his mark are resurrected to reign with Christ during the Millennium (a job for the Nation of Priests, not Gentiles who are subservient to Israel during the 1000 years.
Here is a vital point I think is often overlooked: both Rev 14:9 and Rev 20:4 make a clear distinction between worshipping the Beast and receiving his mark. I think the worship of the Antichrist will be the worship of him by the Jews as the “1st coming” of Messiah. It is that specific false worship (possible only by a Jew) AND the receiving of his mark that will doom a Jew. I think the economic choice to get the mark with little of no regard as to his claim of divinity will be made by Gentiles without impunity as far as making it into the kingdom——the key for Gentiles is solely their recognition of their place in the kingdom program in relation to the Jews. I believe the Syrophenician woman and the centurion stories both illustrate that recognition of their place in the kingdom program and they properly blessed Israel, so received blessing. Mark 8:5-13 even specifically says of the centurion “For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.”
Like you often point out, we can’t put our Grace Age definition to salvation under the kingdom program. I think Gentiles make it into the kingdom solely on Matt 25 criteria.
Your thoughts?
Alicia,
The chief focus, addressees, of Revelation is Israel, the Jews, but the events concern the whole world, Jew and Gentile. That is God’s prophetic program. So “anyone” of Revelation 14.9 means any Jew or Gentile. To take the Beast’s mark means one worships him, accepts his claim to be God. This is the antithesis of the gospel of the kingdom, which is that Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God. One will be saved in the Tribulation by believing this gospel. The proof of belief is what Jesus described in Matthew 25. This includes both Jews and Gentiles. Jesus warned that one’s enemies will be one’s own household. Christ is the great divider of humanity. He unites us in Him.